Oli
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Speed Bug Setting On 727

Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:49 am

Hi,

I would like to know how the speed bugs will be set up on a 727 for take off and landing.
I believe this depends on airlines.

Thanks in advance for your input on this.

Have a nice day,

Olivier
 
FlyHossD
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:51 pm

It's been a long while, but...

Starting with the weight and flap setting, we simply read from a chart or used flip-cards with V1, Vr and V2. These cards also had the clean (flaps retracted) speeds, too.

The flap setting was sometimes dictated by the runway length.

It was a simple process, but an important one.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:27 pm

it's been a number of years since I flew the 727 so someone current may be a better source but I'll start off with what I remember. For T/O set V1, Vr & V2, all flap and slat retract speeds and 250kts. I think 250kts was the orange "knobbed" bug. Maybe V2 was a double bug. Cruise, we set high & low mach buffet speeds and cruise mach was the orange "knobbed" bug . Approach , Vref, Vapp (orange "knobbed" bug) and 250kts,
 
Oli
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:27 pm

Hi,

Thanks for your answer - I should have been more specific.
I know, that, for take off, you will set V1, V2 and VR, but what about the two others? (one for beginning of flap retraction and the other for clean config?).

On approach, I know that one will be VREF, one for first flap engage (0 to 2) but what about the others?

Thanks!

Olivier
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:41 pm

Yeah, I forgot that, on app you would set min clean and slat & flap ext speeds as well. Other than that I think my post is correct. On T/O min clean would be slat retract speed.
 
411A
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:11 pm

Some (most) B727 aircraft have only one airspeed bug, which is usually orange in color, and....

is set at V2 for takeoff
and,
Vref for landing.

Pilots are then expected to know what the other applicable speeds are, and fly accordingly....instead of having an airspeed indicator looking like a porkupine, with multiple airspeed bugs.

NB.
The L1011 is much the same, only one orange bug....whereas, a few airlines will add a couple of white bugs on the instrument external ring, for added clarity.
Ours does not...one bug only.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:22 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 5):
a couple of white bugs on the instrument external ring, for added clarity.

We had about 5 or 6 white ones with 2 that "faced" each other to pair as a double bug.
 
Vmcavmcg
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:35 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 6):
We had about 5 or 6 white ones with 2 that "faced" each other to pair as a double bug

Boy, I really have to dust off the cobwebs for this. My last 727 flight was in 1990!

Like CosmicCruiser, we had a "marked bug" on the outer edge of the airspeed bezel. We had either 4 or 5 other white bugs plus the orange bug in the airspeed indicator. The "marked bug was set to V2 then a a bug for V1 and another for Vr, so on the 727 they were normally set right next to each other. We had another bug set at Vzf and another for 250. On takeoff you climbed at V2+10 until 800' and then lowered the nose to 9 degrees and accelerated. When the airspeed bug was 1/3 of the way to Vzf you retracted Flays to 5, at 2/3 Flaps 2 and approaching Vzf, flaps to 0.

On approach Vref was the marked bug, another bug was Vref+5 another was Vzf and another was 250 and a final bug at 80 knots.

But, each operator had their own bug system some had no bigs on the outside of the bezel. For as many operators there were I am sure there were as many systems.
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tb727
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:55 pm

And here you go! I just happened to take this pic yesterday. Speeds are bugged for I think about 165,000 pound takeoff, can't remember. Clockwise from the 130kts is V1, V2, Flaps 5 maneuvering speed, Flaps 2 m/s and Clean m/s.
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Max Q
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:54 am

Nice to see you flying at 727 speed there.



.86 is very comfortable in that aircraft.



Bit noisy though !
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tb727
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:02 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
Nice to see you flying at 727 speed there.

.86 is very comfortable in that aircraft.

Bit noisy though !

Yeah we were planned at .84 but it "crept up" for a few minutes . Good old NY Center decided to add what ended up being nearly 40 minutes of new routing on to our day. It was also my Friday so that may or may not have had anything to do with it. We have the eyebrows plugged on this one, it's a little quieter believe it or not, still kinda loud of course.

It's amazing how well these things do fast, anything under .80 it seems we are just wasting fuel.

Some airplanes have another white bug on the bezel in which case we bug the Flaps 25 maneuvering speed but it normally ends up being the left edge of the "salmon bug" of the V2 bug. It looks orange to me.

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 2):
Cruise, we set high & low mach buffet speeds and cruise mach was the orange "knobbed" bug . Approach , Vref, Vapp (orange "knobbed" bug) and 250kts,

I like the idea of bugging the Mach Buffet speeds, might bring that up!

On landing, we have the maneuvering speeds set, the orange bug is the VApp speed and the last bug which would be in the V1 position in the pic is the VTh(threshold) speed.
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Max Q
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:17 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 10):

Yeah we were planned at .84 but it "crept up" for a few minutes . Good old NY Center decided to add what ended up being nearly 40 minutes of new routing on to our day. It was also my Friday so that may or may not have had anything to do with it. We have the eyebrows plugged on this one, it's a little quieter believe it or not, still kinda loud of course.

It's amazing how well these things do fast, anything under .80 it seems we are just wasting fuel.

Interesting, I didn't know you could plug the eyebrows on the 727 but it makes sense, same dimensions as the 737.



I never had a use for them except on rare occasions maneuvring in the pattern they just let in too much sun.



With a strong headwind, like many jets of its era I found I could consistently beat the flight plan fuel on a .8 flight plan with a .83-.84 cruise (less time spent flying into the wind) many Pilots would not believe it until they saw it.




The fastest Mach I have taken one too was .92. with the lower ZFW switch. She was,as you can imagine solid as a rock at that speed.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:54 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 10):
I like the idea of bugging the Mach Buffet speeds, might bring that up!

As a rule it isn't a big deal but every now and then you'd be suprised how close they got. Of course we flew -100s, -200s w/ -15 & -17 as well as a few Valsans so the mix was varied. Good luck!
 
n685fe
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:48 pm

I'm pretty sure ours have five that clip to the outside plus the orange one built in, and I think two of the white ones have the notches on them. I think I have some in my toolbox, they are either for the DC10 or 727. It is always a good thing to have extra bugs in your toolbox, missing bugs usually wasn't found by the crew till it was almost time to block out. Saves a delay report.
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tb727
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:19 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 12):
As a rule it isn't a big deal but every now and then you'd be suprised how close they got. Of course we flew -100s, -200s w/ -15 & -17 as well as a few Valsans so the mix was varied. Good luck!

Yeah it's in the back of your mind but it would be nice to know instead of having the FE scramble to get out his magnifying glass and find it on his desktop. Yeah, we have EVERYTHING on the desktop, no flip cards for us.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 11):

The fastest Mach I have taken one too was .92. with the lower ZFW switch. She was,as you can imagine solid as a rock at that speed.

I bet she was! Still an amazing design, I'd have no problem taking one out and doing it right now, even the 40 year old one we have. I've touched .88 but nothing higher than that.
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Max Q
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:20 am

A true high speed design, B oeing tested it to .96 and then TWA decided to take it further and went supersonic with one.



She held together even when the gear was lowered to help regain control.



Not sure if they used that one again.
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n685fe
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:03 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 15):
A true high speed design, B oeing tested it to .96 and then TWA decided to take it further and went supersonic with one.



She held together even when the gear was lowered to help regain control.



Not sure if they used that one again.

Is this the one your thinking of? I had thought it was Northwest.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19790404-0
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=37981&key=0

A photo close to the incident date.

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Continued to fly pax then cargo.

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Photo © Ricardo Coppola



[Edited 2010-11-02 19:03:51]
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Max Q
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:15 am

Thanks 685, thats the one !




And not the only Boeing that has gone supersonic, I think it was China Airlines over the Pacific..
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tb727
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:21 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 15):
A true high speed design, B oeing tested it to .96 and then TWA decided to take it further and went supersonic with one.

Yep, no one ever flew a 727 faster than Hoot Gibson!
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Max Q
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RE: Speed Bug Setting On 727

Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:55 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 18):

Yep, no one ever flew a 727 faster than Hoot Gibson!

Yeah,


He got to do it.


Once..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.

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