timz
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Parallel Contrails, Same Altitude, <1 Mile Apart?

Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:31 pm

Two puzzling pictures here

http://www.skystef.be/contrail-special.htm

Scroll 70-75% down to 17 October 2008: two LH jets allegedly at the same altitude, flying parallel maybe a half mile apart. Any way they could really be the same altitude?

Another further down, 22 November 2007, an A346 and a B738 passing parallel in opposite directions, and it says they're both at 37000 ft. Think ATC authorized them to maintain visual separation?
 
B6JFKH81
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RE: Parallel Contrails, Same Altitude, <1 Mile Apart?

Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:32 pm

IMHO, I am thinking they weren't busting any separation rules here, but I do think we are getting an optical mind screw. Both the pictures that you reference have 1 large aircraft and a 1 small aircraft which throws off perception. Then, they are using mega-zoom lenses which further messes with perception. Cool pics though. Love some of the ones in front of the moon...WOW!
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
timz
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RE: Parallel Contrails, Same Altitude, <1 Mile Apart?

Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:20 am

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 1):
they are using mega-zoom lenses which further messes with perception.

If the two aircraft really are at the same altitude, and flying parallel, then no messing is possible. The two contrails are ten or fifteen wingspans apart-- no way around it, whatever lens he used.

So, could they possibly be that close together at the same altitude? ATC would presumably have to approve; any way they would?
 
DualQual
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RE: Parallel Contrails, Same Altitude, <1 Mile Apart?

Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:25 am

No way they were at the same altitude. Don't believe everything you read on the internet. I think it is a typo and nothing more.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Parallel Contrails, Same Altitude, <1 Mile Apart?

Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:28 am

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 1):
IMHO, I am thinking they weren't busting any separation rules here, but I do think we are getting an optical mind screw.

  

Quoting timz (Thread starter):
Think ATC authorized them to maintain visual separation?

IFR only at altitude.
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
jgarrido
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RE: Parallel Contrails, Same Altitude, <1 Mile Apart?

Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:22 pm

Quoting timz (Thread starter):
Scroll 70-75% down to 17 October 2008: two LH jets allegedly at the same altitude, flying parallel maybe a half mile apart. Any way they could really be the same altitude?

Another further down, 22 November 2007, an A346 and a B738 passing parallel in opposite directions, and it says they're both at 37000 ft.

The only proof that they are at the same altitude is the caption in the photo. Which is to say there is no proof provided. Also the perspective makes it impossible to judge how far apart they were laterally/longitudinally.

Quoting timz (Thread starter):
Think ATC authorized them to maintain visual separation?

I don't know about europe but in the US ATC cannot authorize visual separation in Class A/Positive Control Airspace. In the US that's above 18k feet and above in most cases, in europe it often lower.

[Edited 2010-11-11 04:22:38]
 
SPREE34
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RE: Parallel Contrails, Same Altitude, <1 Mile Apart?

Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:58 pm

Typos and illusions. The aircraft would all have been vertically separated.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Parallel Contrails, Same Altitude, <1 Mile Apart?

Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:47 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 6):

That's my thought as well.

Based on the image, I'd guess the A320 is higher than the A330. But pretty difficult to tell.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
Mir
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RE: Parallel Contrails, Same Altitude, <1 Mile Apart?

Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:25 pm

Quoting timz (Thread starter):
Scroll 70-75% down to 17 October 2008: two LH jets allegedly at the same altitude, flying parallel maybe a half mile apart. Any way they could really be the same altitude?

The description under he photo says the 330 was at FL340 and the 320 was at FL330, which I could buy.

Quoting timz (Thread starter):
Another further down, 22 November 2007, an A346 and a B738 passing parallel in opposite directions, and it says they're both at 37000 ft.

Again, the description says that one was at FL380 and the other was at FL360.

Maybe the author of the page did some updating between the time you posted and now.

The last two on the page are interesting - in the second to last (1 March 07), it's pretty clear that the 320 is lower than the 747. In the last one (29 November 06), it's really hard to tell, but I'd say that the EK 300 is 1,000 feet above the TK 330. Again, no way they could be at the same altitude.

Also, the ISS shots are fantastic.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Parallel Contrails, Same Altitude, <1 Mile Apart?

Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:34 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):

The description under he photo says the 330 was at FL340 and the 320 was at FL330, which I could buy.

We must be reading different descriptions, cause the one I see says both were at FL340 (it's the photo with LH D-AIKK and D-AIPH).

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
it's really hard to tell, but I'd say that the EK 300 is 1,000 feet above the TK 330.

I'd agree, though you're right, it is very hard to tell.

EDIT: Haha, the caption has been corrected (is that what you saw, Mir?).

[Edited 2010-11-11 12:35:41]
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
Mir
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RE: Parallel Contrails, Same Altitude, <1 Mile Apart?

Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:09 am

Must be, though there wasn't any red text when I looked at it the way there is now. And I read it several times to make sure I was reading it correctly. Maybe I'm losing my mind.  

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
TPAJAY
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RE: Parallel Contrails, Same Altitude, <1 Mile Apart?

Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:17 pm

Quoting timz (Thread starter):
Two puzzling pictures here

http://www.skystef.be/contrail-special.htm

Scroll 70-75% down to 17 October 2008: two LH jets allegedly at the same altitude, flying parallel maybe a half mile apart. Any way they could really be the same altitude?

Another further down, 22 November 2007, an A346 and a B738 passing parallel in opposite directions, and it says they're both at 37000 ft. Think ATC authorized them to maintain visual separation?

Wow that is a pretty cool site!!!

Jay
 
timz
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RE: Parallel Contrails, Same Altitude, <1 Mile Apart?

Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:28 pm

Note from the photographer (or the website boss, in any case):

"Hi all, rechecking my SBS data you are right this seems all quite impossible. Standard minimum vertical separation is 1000 ft and horizontally it is 5000 ft. Everything beneath this threshold is dangerous.

"The A333 of LH flew on my SBS the entire track at 34000 ft, the A320 of LH entered at 34000 ft and left at 32000 ft.So my guess is that while both were closing the A320 descended to 33000 ft.

"The A346 entered my box in the west at 35000 ft and left in the east at 39000 ft. The 738 entered my box in the east at 38000 ft and left in the west at 36000 ft. My guess is that when they closed each other the A346 was at 35000-36000 ftand the 738 at 38000-37000 ft, so vertical separation was 1000-2000 ft.

"Hope it clears all speculation and corrected this info om my web.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Parallel Contrails, Same Altitude, <1 Mile Apart?

Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:09 pm

Quoting timz (Reply 12):
Standard minimum vertical separation is 1000 ft and horizontally it is 5000 ft.

Can you inform the guy MINIMUM RADAR separation is not 1000ft/5000ft. It is 3NM TMA or 5NM Area and 1000ft or 2000ft non-RVSM, and any required wake separations, whichever is greater.
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90

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