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readytotaxi
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Understanding Crew Hours V Delays?

Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:56 pm

I would like to understand what it is that causes a crew to time out on a planned flight.

http://www.batraveltrade.com/rtad/travel/public/en_us

In the above example the BA0213 LHR-BOS today was delayed by 5 hours.
Would the same crew take the flight?
At what time is a crew member classed as "on duty"? Is it the time of the flight departure or the time they arrived at the "office"
I presume the flying time is also a factor.
Do the rules vary from company to company.
Who has the final say, pilot,airline or aviation authority?
TIA
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Tristarsteve
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RE: Understanding Crew Hours V Delays?

Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:03 pm

The BA crew are on duty from their scheduled report time in the Crew Report Centre.
The max duty time depends on various factors like time of day and how many sectors they are doing. In the case of an unscheduled delay it can be extended by the Captain.
But for a daytime BOS with a flight time of around 7 hours, I would expect the same crew was still on board..
The rules vary from country to country, and airlines have their own extra rules on top of this as negotiated by the pilots union.
You will get 10 different replies from guys in different airlines but there are limits which cannot be broken by anyone when known before take off.
 
Bellerophon
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RE: Understanding Crew Hours V Delays?

Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:56 am

readytotaxi

...In the above example the BA0213 LHR-BOS today was delayed by 5 hours...Would the same crew take the flight?..

Probably!

However, don't make the mistake of treating the crew as a single entity, with a single duty hour limit. The crew will comprise of around 15 individuals, who may have several different duty hour limitations, all of which must be taken into account to find their individual duty hour limit.

For example, there may be a crewmember who has been:
  • * On standby since early morning, who will have an earlier start of duty time than anyone else.

  • * Swopped onto this flight from an earlier flight, who will have a different start of duty time to anyone else.

  • * Positioned in from another base earlier today, and who will now have fewer duty hours remaining than anyone else.

  • * Rostered close to a weekly/monthly flying hour limit and has limited scope for an extended duty day.

  • * Subject to reduced rest at base after their previous flight and has reduced duty hour availability.


My personal record is five different sets of maximum duty hours available on one crew.

The rules do vary from company to company and state to state as you suggest. Most crews will be classed as on duty at the time they are required to report for the flight, usually around one hour or so before scheduled departure, at which point the duty-clock starts ticking.

Under JAA rules, the Captain can extend a duty-day, under certain circumstances, at his discretion. Whilst this may make the proposed (extended) flight legal, it does not necessarily compel a crew member to work beyond their contractual obligations to their company.

Who has the last say? Look at it this way:

    * Ignore your Captain's ruling and you answer to your manager.

  • * Break your Company's rules and you answer to your company's disciplinary board.

  • * Exceed your State Aviation Authority limits, and you answer to the Judge!


Best Regards

Bellerophon

[Edited 2010-12-27 17:58:34]
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Understanding Crew Hours V Delays?

Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:25 am

Great answer Bellerophon...

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 2):
* Ignore your Captain's ruling and you answer to your manager.

What would there be to answer for/to? Would that not be within the right of said crewmember to decline?
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HAWK21M
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RE: Understanding Crew Hours V Delays?

Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:00 am

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
At what time is a crew member classed as "on duty"? Is it the time of the flight departure or the time they arrived at the "office

Time they leave their hotel/residence.
8hrs + 4 Hrs extension Twice in Thirty days for non technical delays.no extenstion limt/month fortechnical delays.
Depends on regulatory Authority of the country concerned.

regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Understanding Crew Hours V Delays?

Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:26 pm

WOW, thanks for all that information.

There is so much going on in the background day to day we don't know or forget about, and we moan when our luggage is late !!! More respect passengers for the people at the sharp end.  
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
Bellerophon
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RE: Understanding Crew Hours V Delays?

Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:46 pm

airportugal310

...What would there be to answer for/to? Would that not be within the right of said crewmember to decline?...

It depends on whether the re-scheduled flight is going to exceed their contractual work agreement with their employer.

In my old UK based airline, operating under JAA/EU-OPS rules, a crew member has the right to decline to work one minute beyond his contractual limit, regardless of how much longer the State limit would allow him to work. The re-scheduled flight may be well within the legal limits (as laid down by the State) but if it is over the contractual limits (as agreed between the company and the relevant union) he does not have to operate, and he will not be required to answer to anyone.

However, a crewmember can sometimes report for a flight which is well within his contractual limits but only just within State legal limits. If this type of flight then suffers a delay before departure, perhaps a technical problem or maybe awaiting snow clearance from a runway, it may be the case that, initially, the flight can no longer be commenced because it will infringe State legal limits, even though it remains within crew contractual limits.

Subject to certain provisos, JAA/EU-OPS rules permit the Captain, at his sole discretion, to extend the legal duty hours limit, provided he believes the flight can still safely be made. If he does so, the flight becomes "legal" again.

If, under these circumstances, with the flight once again within legal and contractual limits, a crewmember should decline to operate the re-scheduled flight, then that crew member, in my view, would be called to justify his decision to a crew manager.

It may well be that he would be able to do so, but, in my view, he would be required to explain his decision.

Best Regards

Bellerophon
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Understanding Crew Hours V Delays?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:55 pm

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 6):
If, under these circumstances, with the flight once again within legal and contractual limits, a crewmember should decline to operate the re-scheduled flight, then that crew member, in my view, would be called to justify his decision to a crew manager.

It may well be that he would be able to do so, but, in my view, he would be required to explain his decision.

Sounds like ye olde "you need to be a team player" talk...

Thanks!
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