craigpc01
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A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:41 am

This is NOT a Bus vs. Boeing thread. I am wondering from real pilots who fly the A330 (or have) why the aircraft can be 'tricky' to land in crosswind as compared to other airliners similar in size?
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:30 am

Quoting craigpc01 (Thread starter):
the aircraft can be 'tricky' to land in crosswind as compared to other airliners similar in size?

And just who or what is the source for that unfactual claim?

[Edited 2011-03-07 20:31:50]
 
goboeing
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:31 am

I do not fly the A-330 but I did have a jumpseater a few months ago who was a check airman on it for more than five years and while talking about 'stirring the pot' oscillations with the sidestick and autothrottles, he said "The A-330 is a disaster waiting to happen."
 
mandala499
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:50 am

If it is too tricky to land in such a situation:
1. Go-around and go somewhere else
2. Go and blame the guys who certified the aircraft.

I do suggest... go and ask the guys who flies those aircraft and see if they think it's tricky or not... I have not met one who says "the 330 is one b17ch to land!"...
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craigpc01
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:16 am

I did hear it directly from an A330 pilot. He did not say it was a 'b17ch to land', he said crosswinds can be "tricky". Wanted to hear other opinions.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:45 am

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 2):
I do not fly the A-330 but I did have a jumpseater a few months ago who was a check airman on it for more than five years and while talking about 'stirring the pot' oscillations with the sidestick and autothrottles, he said "The A-330 is a disaster waiting to happen."

Even from my experience here on a.nut tech ops I have found there are pilots who simply do not like one type or another, and will bash it beyond any rhyme or reason. This is typically not based on facts and is definitely not supported by operational experience.

If the 330 were a "disaster waiting to happen", more disasters would have happened. The figures speak otherwise Total 330/340 accidents with fatalities: 2 (1 in service). Of these two, one was due to human factors. The other is, granted, still not solved.
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travelavnut
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:30 am

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 2):
he said "The A-330 is a disaster waiting to happen."



Ow please, go sell your flaimbate somewhere else.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
Even from my experience here on a.nut tech ops I have found there are pilots who simply do not like one type or another, and will bash it beyond any rhyme or reason. This is typically not based on facts and is definitely not supported by operational experience.



  

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
If the 330 were a "disaster waiting to happen", more disasters would have happened. The figures speak otherwise Total 330/340 accidents with fatalities: 2 (1 in service). Of these two, one was due to human factors. The other is, granted, still not solved.

Indeed, and the one not solved had nothing to do with a crosswind landing.

Hopefully PGNS or Pihero can slam some sense into this thread.
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Pihero
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:55 am

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 2):
a check airman on it for more than five years and while talking about 'stirring the pot' oscillations with the sidestick and autothrottles, he said "The A-330 is a disaster waiting to happen."

I suggest you check more carefully the credentials of the people you take in your flight deck.

Wishful thinking ?
Considering that the A330 is now just about 20 years old...   
And "stirring the pot oscillations with the sidestick and autothrottles (???) ", meaning in my own dictionary *self induced turbulence* and being a check airman with a five year experience on the plane, I thought US flight training was way better than his example.

Seriously, now, people complicate concepts that are quite simple. We know the geometry of a crosswind landing, the recommended first technique being *the crab* with wings level. Upon touch-down, cancel the drift (i.e De-crab ) et voilà !
Your gear struts are compressed at the same time, spoilers deploy and reverse thrust is at your disposal.
I know I will cause some chagrin to some diehard anti A, but that technique is used also on the 'Bus.
The piloting bit is , in this case exactly what one would use on any other aircraft.

The forward slip technique, recommended for the Tristar (and the Ten, I was told...) requires a different type of action on the sidestick : a continuous feeding the bank in and then neutralizing the impending yawing effect by re-centering it, and again and again.
After a very short while, one realises that what matters is the end-product of one's control inputs, and not the way one would need them.

I have 15 years on the 'Buses and have never felt unsafe during very gusty winds across the runway (done so to the demonstrated limits of the 318, 319,320, 321, 333.
The only one that shows some difficulty is the 318, aka *the microbus* as it's light and the controls veeeery lively. Yeah, on that one, you have to be mindful of self induced oscillations.

Well, if one doesn't feel right about the look of the approach,

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 3):
If it is too tricky to land in such a situation:
1. Go-around and go somewhere else
2. Go and blame the guys who certified the aircraft.
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
Hopefully PGNS or Pihero can slam some sense into this thread.

Thanks; Don't forget the resident 'Bus specialist, Zeke.

As an illustration, this is a link to a utube video on a windy day at Gatwick.
Two airplanes in succession : a 777 and a 330.
Compare both techniques

[Edited 2011-03-08 04:52:52]

[Edited 2011-03-08 04:53:38]
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goboeing
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:27 pm

Guys, listen.

I put that quote from the guy into this thread because there he was, 20-30 years experience on Boeing, Douglas, and Airbus jets telling me that he thought the A-330 is a disaster waiting to happen. Of course I'm sure he was exaggerating a little but what would the point of this forum be without people throwing in some opinions?

He was not the first 330 guy I've heard say that the thing is a bit tricky in crosswinds.
 
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:57 pm

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 8):
Guys, listen.

I put that quote from the guy into this thread because there he was, 20-30 years experience on Boeing, Douglas, and Airbus jets telling me that he thought the A-330 is a disaster waiting to happen. Of course I'm sure he was exaggerating a little but what would the point of this forum be without people throwing in some opinions?

He was not the first 330 guy I've heard say that the thing is a bit tricky in crosswinds.

I've flown with many ex-Boeing captains who do exaggerate the shortcomings of the Airbus product. It's no surprise to hear such a ridiculous statement coming from pilots who are used to flying American metal. In the flesh, I've met many an airmen who show much more bias against a certain type of aircraft as compared to even the armchair pilots here on a-net.

A disaster waiting to happen? Hardly. I haven't had a problem with it during crosswinds at all. In fact, some of my best landings come when the crosswinds exceed 10 kts. I have no idea why, maybe it's because I concentrate more.

The only modern aircraft I have universally heard that's tricky to land in crosswinds is the MD-11. Even then, it's far fetched to say any type of modern aircraft is 'a disaster waiting to happen'. In the hands of an incompetent pilot, any aircraft can be a disaster waiting to happen.
 
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:18 pm

Quoting buckfifty (Reply 9):
In fact, some of my best landings come when the crosswinds exceed 10 kts. I have no idea why, maybe it's because I concentrate more

There has been a lengthy discussion on that phenomenon as a vast majority of aircraft handlers think the same.
In some circles, the consensus is about the transformation in the apparent wing geometry relative to the airflow at the moment one decrabs : the aspect ratio diminishes and the induced drag rises just about at the moment when the ground effect tends to reduce the induced drag.
The result is in fact a very *transpârent* ground effect, masked by the drag rise, thus making the flare corrections quite a lot simpler, without the *step* caused by ground effect.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 8):
I'm sure he was exaggerating a little

I'd really hate to see him when he's really exaggerating.
I don't mind opinions. Just depends on people's objectivity, honesty and sincerity.
Otherwise, just logorrhea. And I've seen it.
and so have I flamebaits.
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redflyer
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:20 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
The figures speak otherwise Total 330/340 accidents with fatalities: 2 (1 in service). Of these two, one was due to human factors. The other is, granted, still not solved.

You forgot one: Afriqiyah Airways flight 771 which crashed last year with the loss of 103 out of 104 passengers and crew.

That makes 3 (2 in service).
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Starlionblue
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:31 pm

Quoting redflyer (Reply 11):
You forgot one: Afriqiyah Airways flight 771 which crashed last year with the loss of 103 out of 104 passengers and crew.

That makes 3 (2 in service).

***facepalm*** Oops! Yes you are correct.
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brons2
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:08 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 7):
As an illustration, this is a link to a utube video on a windy day at Gatwick.
Two airplanes in succession : a 777 and a 330.
Compare both techniques

What was done differently? I didn't catch it. Both looked about the same to me. Very smooth, both of them.
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Starlionblue
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:59 am

Quoting brons2 (Reply 13):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 7):
As an illustration, this is a link to a utube video on a windy day at Gatwick.
Two airplanes in succession : a 777 and a 330.
Compare both techniques

What was done differently? I didn't catch it. Both looked about the same to me. Very smooth, both of them.

If I'm not mistaken, that was Pihero's point. Same technique despite different control systems and stick vs yoke. "A plane is a plane" in this case I guess.  
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Pihero
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:24 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 14):
If I'm not mistaken, that was Pihero's point. Same technique despite different control systems and stick vs yoke. "A plane is a plane" in this case I guess.

Exabsolutely, Starlionblue !

A pilot's job is to master his/her plane, whatever the control inputs it requires, provided that control input is - somehow - intuitive : a good example is , on a cable-and-rod aircraft, the need to counter the overbanking tendency of the plane at highish bank angles, by having the control wheel in opposite direction to the turn.
If one watches carefully, one coud see a repeted up/neutral movement of the left aileron.
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Starlionblue
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:28 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 15):
Exabsolutely

You spelled that wrong. It's actually "exabsotively". 
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mandala499
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:01 pm

Quoting craigpc01 (Reply 4):
He did not say it was a 'b17ch to land', he said crosswinds can be "tricky"

Sorry, but saying:

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 2):
"The A-330 is a disaster waiting to happen."

Is a lot worse than saying it's a bi7ch to land, and does not correlate to "can be tricky".

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 2):
'stirring the pot' oscillations with the sidestick and autothrottles

He obviously have difficulty with Airbus' pitch command and autotrim logic. However, "thumb gets numb" oscillation with the yoke and autothrottles, seems consistent with 737s on A/P off and A/T on approaches in gusty conditions....   

"stirring the pot oscillation" equates "hand job self-satisfaction with a little push-pull violence" on yoke aircraft... (in the words of a pervert who flew both).   

Give pilots a free session on "how many ways you can slag off aircraft types you don't like", and U'd be amazed how convincing some of them can be in their exaggerations.   

Mandala499
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Pihero
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:26 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 17):
"stirring the pot oscillation" equates "hand job self-satisfaction with a little push-pull violence" on yoke aircraft... (in the words of a pervert who flew both).

Not true ! I never ever ever said that !!!   

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
You spelled that wrong. It's actually "exabsotively".

I bow to your supertior culture !
  
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buckfifty
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:45 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):

There has been a lengthy discussion on that phenomenon as a vast majority of aircraft handlers think the same.
In some circles, the consensus is about the transformation in the apparent wing geometry relative to the airflow at the moment one decrabs : the aspect ratio diminishes and the induced drag rises just about at the moment when the ground effect tends to reduce the induced drag.
The result is in fact a very *transpârent* ground effect, masked by the drag rise, thus making the flare corrections quite a lot simpler, without the *step* caused by ground effect.

I think I'll just stick with the 'I was just concentrating very hard sir' bit.  
 
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:29 am

Quoting buckfifty (Reply 19):
I think I'll just stick with the 'I was just concentrating very hard sir' bit.

We pilots tend to want to know the whys and the hows of our trade.
Sometimes to an extraordinary level : I've seen - and participated - in a discussion on how to brake as smoothly as one can, discussion that went into maths and physics details on friction / deceleration... in the end, the conclusion was that the best stopping-smoothly technique is when there's no braking at all before a complete stop.
True.
(Apparently, the younger generations have forgotten it as very often, there's the end-jerking motion of the stopping vehicle )
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musang
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:53 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
(Apparently, the younger generations have forgotten it as very often, there's the end-jerking motion of the stopping vehicle )

This is one of my pet hates aswell, another is an abrupt release of the brakes after running up to 75% on take-off. What must the customers be thinking?

Regards - musang
 
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:25 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 18):
Not true ! I never ever ever said that !!!

I didn't say it was you!    But then again... sorry if it's coincidentally the same as you mon ami!   

Quoting musang (Reply 21):
What must the customers be thinking?

Errrrr.... "YEEEHAAAA" ?????

Quoting musang (Reply 21):
This is one of my pet hates aswell

It's funny to be in the cabin when this happens and one passenger remarks, "there must be a newbie in one of the seats up front..."   
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
330guy
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:05 pm

It's funny this thread popped up, today I was at DUB watching some x-wind landings and seen 2 EI330's come in and they both appeared to be struggling, they came in one after the other and had a hard time of it (including one looking like a bobble head on a car dashboard) next up was a 737 that didn't appear to have too much trouble.... I'm not saying they have a problem or anything but just weighing in with what I saw this morning
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buckfifty
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:54 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
Sometimes to an extraordinary level : I've seen - and participated - in a discussion on how to brake as smoothly as one can, discussion that went into maths and physics details on friction / deceleration... in the end, the conclusion was that the best stopping-smoothly technique is when there's no braking at all before a complete stop.
True.
(Apparently, the younger generations have forgotten it as very often, there's the end-jerking motion of the stopping vehicle )

My brother taught me how to drive when I was young, and it is the same exact theory which I apply to my day to day driving. As long as you can release the pressure on the nose oleo at the last second, the aircraft will not bob at all as it comes to a stop. It's funny though how many can get this wrong.

But the thing that's hard to master is holding onto the brakes coming to the gate in a linear fashion. That is, apply a level of consistent braking without lifting at all until the last second. I think it's more of a feel issue rather than a technical issue, with the differences in incline and surface conditions at each and every gate.

It shows that a pilot has attention to detail if they can do this perfectly. A sign of competency comes in many forms.
 
Pihero
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:25 pm

Quoting buckfifty (Reply 24):

But the thing that's hard to master is holding onto the brakes coming to the gate in a linear fashion. That is, apply a level of consistent braking without lifting at all until the last second. I think it's more of a feel issue rather than a technical issue, with the differences in incline and surface conditions at each and every gate.

The theory I alluded to calls for a diminishing brake pressure with diminishing speed, in order to achieve a constantly diminishing deceleration........ errrrr... am I making myself clear ?

What was your brother's job ?
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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:32 pm

Quoting musang (Reply 21):
This is one of my pet hates aswell, another is an abrupt release of the brakes after running up to 75% on take-off. What must the customers be thinking?

One man's pet hate is another's heaven - who still does this? I need to know! I've not experienced this since a TXC 757 to IBZ a few years back - "sporty" wasnt the word lol

I am so tired of rolling FLEX takeoffs...
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Pihero
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:36 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 22):
It's funny to be in the cabin when this happens and one passenger remarks, "there must be a newbie in one of the seats up front..."

Reminds me of a time long ago where I wasd a young DC-4 F/O doing some mission in Africa.
T'was hot and sticky and we were all in shorts and desert boots.
I was once walking the aisle toward the cockpit and an older woman said rather loudly : "My god, I didn't know boy scouts were driving this aeroplane !"
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buckfifty
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:32 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 25):

The theory I alluded to calls for a diminishing brake pressure with diminishing speed, in order to achieve a constantly diminishing deceleration........ errrrr... am I making myself clear ?

What was your brother's job ?

No no, I understand what you said perfectly. Maybe I should have written it in a more concise manner. It's exactly what you described, but what I find is that your description works when you are near the stop point. My brother taught me how to drive, and that's how I apply my braking both in my car and in the plane. It allows one to shift the balance of the said vehicle from the nose closer to the center of the vehicle as you come to a stop, and prevents the jerking (or bobbing on the nose oleo) as you come to a stop.

Generally, with the guidance systems these days, they won't work properly unless if you're under 4 kts (otherwise they won't give you the distance information, as all it will do is to tell you to slow down). So you want to have a consistent speed as you're turning into the bay, and then decelerate as you come within 10M or so of the stop point. But I do find that (myself included) in many instances, guys tend to slow down too early, and therefore they require either a release of the brakes, or sometimes even an increase in thrust, in order to make it to the finish line. This happens a lot in certain places I fly to where there may be a slight incline as you come to the gate, or where the ramp is uneven.

Anyway, it is more of an experience thing. But even with very experienced pilots, I still see this happening, but some manage to do this quite well. It's just attention to detail, I suppose, as part of being a professional.
 
estorilm
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:15 pm

Hmm, this is an interesting thread - and let me start by saying that I'm totally unqualified to state any opinions on the matter (so I won't) but I can offer some interesting observations.

The first of which is the fact that the plane seems to have an impressive ground-effect influence, almost like she doesn't want to land. It's of no fault to the plane (and always looks incredibly graceful on final approach / landing) but perhaps when you want to throw her on the runway and call it a day (high large crosswind component) this is a bad thing?

Obviously they're all certified to impressive crosswind component maximum speeds that none of us would ever want to attempt (especially with a few hundred lives behind us) this is true of all aircraft, but it's met those requirements and has been executing on them for 2 decades.

I'm curious what the unique wing design of the 330 (and 340) have to do with this and/or the ground effect observations I've had. Few people are aware of the fact that this plane has the highest aspect ratio wing (ie. efficiency) of any commercial aircraft in production. As I stated earlier, I find that it's an amazingly graceful looking aircraft.
 
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zeke
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:52 pm

Quoting EstorilM (Reply 29):
The first of which is the fact that the plane seems to have an impressive ground-effect influence, almost like she doesn't want to land.

At light weights the minimum approach speed is increased above Vmca, however for most operating weights this is not a consideration. Ground effect is a function of wingspan, and but no means does the A330 have the largest wingspan of any aircraft in service.

Quoting EstorilM (Reply 29):
Obviously they're all certified to impressive crosswind component maximum speeds that none of us would ever want to attempt (especially with a few hundred lives behind us) this is true of all aircraft, but it's met those requirements and has been executing on them for 2 decades.

I would do a 30-40 kt crosswind landing a few times a year in the A330 (max demonstrated is 40 kt), with all the electronics aboard modern aircraft it is relatively straightforward to perform an extremely accurate approach and landing in a steady high crosswind environment. However in an environment where there is considerable gusts as well as crosswind, it will be difficult for any aircraft in such situations. If the autopilot cannot handle the approach, many a wise person would discontinue the approach and find somewhere else to land. Airline pilots are not paid to take risks with passengers or aircraft entrusted to them, they are there to recognise conditions which exceeds the aircraft capabilities and to find another safe outcome.

I have diverted in conditions where the wind is almost aligned with the runway, however severe low level mechanical turbulence made an approach undesirable. At the same time landing at other times with maximum crosswind with no difficulties. Crosswind by itself is not difficult to handle, however having 40 kt speed variations either side of you approach speed at below 1500' will get you attention very quickly.

Quoting EstorilM (Reply 29):
Few people are aware of the fact that this plane has the highest aspect ratio wing (ie. efficiency) of any commercial aircraft in production.

I am not sure if that is accurate.
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PGNCS
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:26 pm

Quoting buckfifty (Reply 24):
But the thing that's hard to master is holding onto the brakes coming to the gate in a linear fashion. That is, apply a level of consistent braking without lifting at all until the last second. I think it's more of a feel issue rather than a technical issue, with the differences in incline and surface conditions at each and every gate.

It can be difficult with an incline, or with tight turn-ins (slowing, tight turns is one place I find the Airbus more difficult to taxi than others,) but many stations have marshallers directing us and they all do it differently. Some start raising their arms to cross the wands very early and some abruptly cross them. Especially at airports with non-articulating jetways this WILL result in an abrupt stop. There are many reasons for what you feel in the back, and a lot of them are a direct result of the marshaller off the nose of the aircraft.

Quoting buckfifty (Reply 24):
It shows that a pilot has attention to detail if they can do this perfectly.

It's nice, but it also shows that he is using a very good self-parking system or that the marshaller is good. No pilot can stop smoothly every time as long as there are WIDE variances in marshalling techniques out there.

Quoting buckfifty (Reply 24):
A sign of competency comes in many forms.

Yes it does, but to judge competency (or "attention to detail') you need to know all the relevant factors involved in the situation.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 25):
The theory I alluded to calls for a diminishing brake pressure with diminishing speed, in order to achieve a constantly diminishing deceleration........

That's the goal we all try for, but it's not always possible.

Quoting buckfifty (Reply 28):
Generally, with the guidance systems these days, they won't work properly unless if you're under 4 kts (otherwise they won't give you the distance information, as all it will do is to tell you to slow down). So you want to have a consistent speed as you're turning into the bay, and then decelerate as you come within 10M or so of the stop point. But I do find that (myself included) in many instances, guys tend to slow down too early, and therefore they require either a release of the brakes, or sometimes even an increase in thrust, in order to make it to the finish line. This happens a lot in certain places I fly to where there may be a slight incline as you come to the gate, or where the ramp is uneven.

Anyway, it is more of an experience thing. But even with very experienced pilots, I still see this happening, but some manage to do this quite well. It's just attention to detail, I suppose, as part of being a professional.

Taxiing an airliner isn't like driving a car, where you have sole ability to maneuver the vehicle as you see fit (and even then unexpected events can cause less than smooth stopping.) Most places we fly don't have automated guidance systems. We use marshallers and sometimes a guy manually controlling a stoplight system, which is subject to the same issues as a marshaller (is it a long yellow or a really short one?) Attention to detail is part of being a professional, but many things external to the professional taxiing the aircraft can make for a less than optimum parking job, regardless of the pilot's experience level.
 
estorilm
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:46 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 30):
I am not sure if that is accurate.

I am  

Cool reply by the way, and I'm extremely envious of your job - perhaps some day I'll fly something that won't fit inside the engines of the planes you fly haha.


Per wikipedia:

Quote:
The wing has a very high thickness:chord ratio of 12.8 percent, which means that a long span and high aspect ratio can be attained without a severe penalty in weight. For instance, the rival MD-11 had a thickness:cord ratio of 8–9 percent. Both true laminar flow design and variable camber design were studied and considered for the wing, but neither of them were included in the final design.[5]

The failure of International Aero Engines to deliver the radical ultra-high-bypass V2500 "SuperFan", which had promised a significant fuel burn reduction of around 15 percent[5] for the A340 led Airbus to redesign, among other things, the A340 wing to compensate for the loss in predicted efficiency. The design was a long slender wing with a very high aspect ratio, not surpassed by any other airliner even as of 2011. The higher the aspect ratio, the greater the aerodynamic efficiency. Since the A330 and A340 shared the same wing, the A330 benefited also from this new superior wing.[5] At 60.3 m (198 ft),[69] the wingspan is similar to the larger Boeing 747-200, but with only 65 percent of the wing area.[67] The wings were designed and manufactured by British Aerospace, now BAE Systems.[70]

bold = really interesting part that I wasn't aware of

Actually as you mentioned, since ground effect is a function of wingspan.. this brings up an interesting point, with the 330 having nearly the wingspan of the 747 but with a far less weight.. wouldn't this explain the perception of a more powerful ground effect?
 
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zeke
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:15 pm

Quoting EstorilM (Reply 32):
Per wikipedia:

Wiki is wrong again then, the AR on the A330/A340 is 9.26, the A320 series is 9.39, 737NG 9.44, MD80/90 9.62.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
Aircellist
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:13 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 27):
Reminds me of a time long ago where I wasd a young DC-4 F/O doing some mission in Africa.
T'was hot and sticky and we were all in shorts and desert boots.
I was once walking the aisle toward the cockpit and an older woman said rather loudly : "My god, I didn't know boy scouts were driving this aeroplane !"

Splendide!

Quoting buckfifty (Reply 28):
My brother taught me how to drive, and that's how I apply my braking both in my car and in the plane. It allows one to shift the balance of the said vehicle from the nose closer to the center of the vehicle as you come to a stop, and prevents the jerking (or bobbing on the nose oleo) as you come to a stop.

It reminds me of my first driving lesson as well... So many bus drivers in Montreal seem to have forgotten that one. Great to see pilots that do mind about it.
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
musang
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Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 4:11 am

RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:48 pm

Quoting EstorilM (Reply 29):
Obviously they're all certified to impressive crosswind component maximum speeds that none of us would ever want to attempt

What we find in the Limitations sections of the flight manuals are Max Demonstrated Crosswind Components, which are chosen because that was the highest crosswind the test pilots thought would be realistic to expect normal, average line pilots to be able to handle. I'm sure that during testing safe landings were actually performed by the test crews significantly above these published figures. I don't believe I ever have, but if I found myself confronted with a max demonstrated x-wind component landing, I'd just get on with it, confident that such a wind should be within my "average" capabilities!

Quoting EstorilM (Reply 29):
this plane has the highest aspect ratio wing (ie. efficiency) of any commercial aircraft in production.
Quoting EstorilM (Reply 32):
The higher the aspect ratio, the greater the aerodynamic efficiency.

I'm no aerodynamicist, but surely A/R is only one of several factors determining efficiency?

Regards - musang
 
tdscanuck
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Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:01 am

Quoting musang (Reply 35):
Quoting EstorilM (Reply 29):
this plane has the highest aspect ratio wing (ie. efficiency) of any commercial aircraft in production.
Quoting EstorilM (Reply 32):
The higher the aspect ratio, the greater the aerodynamic efficiency.

I'm no aerodynamicist, but surely A/R is only one of several factors determining efficiency?

A/R primarily goes to induced drag. Higher A/R means lower induced drag, all other things being equal. It has no direct connection to fuel burn, form drag, parasitic drag, weight, thermodynamic efficiency, or several other dozen things that all roll up into "efficiency" of a complete aircraft system.

Tom.
 
buckfifty
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:11 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 31):

It can be difficult with an incline, or with tight turn-ins (slowing, tight turns is one place I find the Airbus more difficult to taxi than others,) but many stations have marshallers directing us and they all do it differently. Some start raising their arms to cross the wands very early and some abruptly cross them. Especially at airports with non-articulating jetways this WILL result in an abrupt stop. There are many reasons for what you feel in the back, and a lot of them are a direct result of the marshaller off the nose of the aircraft.

About 70% to 80% of the ports I operate to have guidance systems now, and they're awfully sensitive to the speed you're going at. So instead of slowing down at a gradual pace, we often have to brake earlier and slow the aircraft down as we line up, unlike having a marshaller around. In any case, I digress, as this really has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
 
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glen
Posts: 259
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:43 pm

RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:58 am

Quoting musang (Reply 35):
which are chosen because that was the highest crosswind the test pilots thought would be realistic to expect normal, average line pilots to be able to handle. I'm sure that during testing safe landings were actually performed by the test crews significantly above these published figures.

It is just the opposite way: The published figures are the highest crosswinds they found for testing - and it is left to the average line pilot to decide if he can handle this.
Only a few years ago the crosswind limits on all Airbus planes were rised because they had found a windy day and an airport with a good crosswind. So Airbus could demonstrate higher crosswind limits (e.g. the 40kts for the A330 mentioned by Zeke before) for their planes.
"The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view." - Albert Einstein
 
PGNCS
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RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:14 am

Quoting buckfifty (Reply 37):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 31):

It can be difficult with an incline, or with tight turn-ins (slowing, tight turns is one place I find the Airbus more difficult to taxi than others,) but many stations have marshallers directing us and they all do it differently. Some start raising their arms to cross the wands very early and some abruptly cross them. Especially at airports with non-articulating jetways this WILL result in an abrupt stop. There are many reasons for what you feel in the back, and a lot of them are a direct result of the marshaller off the nose of the aircraft.

About 70% to 80% of the ports I operate to have guidance systems now, and they're awfully sensitive to the speed you're going at. So instead of slowing down at a gradual pace, we often have to brake earlier and slow the aircraft down as we line up, unlike having a marshaller around. In any case, I digress, as this really has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Your point is well taken; I wish I had anywhere close to that percentage of guidance systems available. Parking is an art, and I'm glad you mentioned it.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: A330 Crosswind Difficulty

Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:08 am

Quoting glen (Reply 38):
The published figures are the highest crosswinds they found for testing - and it is left to the average line pilot to decide if he can handle this.

That's not exactly true...the FARs require that the landing be possible by pilots "without exceptional skill." I.e. you have to be a trained pilot but if you need to be an ace test pilot then you can't count that value.

The certified limit can't be higher than what was demonstrated but it could be lower if the highest crosswind they actually did was deemed by the regulator to require abnormal skill.

Tom.

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