United Airline
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Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 7:54 am

Which is the fastest civil aircraft in the world? The A380 I guess?
 
mafi29
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 7:59 am

I think both the 747-400 and the A380 have a cruise speed of 0.85M. I think the 747-8 is a tiny bit faster, cruise speed of 0.855M IIRC.
 
wilco737
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 8:32 am

The 744 has a design speed of Mach 0.85, the 748 0.855. So pretty close. I don't know about the Mmo of the 380, but I did 0.88 last week in the 744. Very shortly of course. Some wind change made the speed increase to almost Mmo 0.90...

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jgarrido
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 9:57 am

Citation 750 at one point was the fastest biz jet at m.92. I think the Gulfstream 650 was aiming to beat it, but I don't know if it actually has.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 9:57 am

If by civil you mean non-military AFAIK the Cessna Citation X the fastest.
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Part147
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 11:18 am

Concorde      
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Starlionblue
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 11:48 am

Quoting Part147 (Reply 5):
Concorde

If we're counting out of service, wasn't the Tu-144 faster than Concorde?
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474218
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 12:29 pm

This would be right up there with the fastest "civil aircraft"!

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travelavnut
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 1:33 pm

Well, for the time it is within our atmosphere I think SpaceShipTwo is the fastest civil and commercial aircraft;  

"SpaceShipTwo will reach 4,200 km/h (2,600 mph), using a single hybrid rocket motor"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceShipTwo
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
wasn't the Tu-144 faster than Concorde?

IIRC it wasn't, also the Tu-144 couldn't super-cruise, the Concorde could do this.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 1:59 pm

Probably the Gulfstream G650.
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B777LRF
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 2:16 pm

Nope, as previously mentioned it's the Space Ship Two. It's got wings and it will fly with fare paying passengers thus ticking all the boxes for "civil aircraft".

If you wish to disallow that aircraft, the next thing will be the G-650 and/or the Citation X. It's only after those two you enter the realm of 747s and TriStars. The A380 is nowhere near the top.
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citationjet
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 2:19 pm

Currently the fastest civil aircraft that is certified is the Citation X. Its Mmo is 0.92M. Nothing is currently certified to fly faster than the Citation X.

Per Cessna's website:
"The Citation X is the fastest civilian aircraft in the sky, cruising just shy of the sound barrier at Mach .92. "
http://www.cessna.com/citation/citation-x.html
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 4:37 pm

Well, the SR71 was flying for the CIA and NASA  

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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 4:45 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 11):
It's only after those two you enter the realm of 747s and TriStars. The A380 is nowhere near the top.

But the 747 and Tristar are?......

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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 5:43 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 11):
Nope, as previously mentioned it's the Space Ship Two. It's got wings and it will fly with fare paying passengers thus ticking all the boxes for "civil aircraft".

I think the words 'space ship' disqualify it as being 'an aircraft', as that is just one phase of its mission. Otherwise you would be justified in saying that the Sea Dart, or maybe an Apollo capsule, is the worlds fastest boat...  
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
Probably the Gulfstream G650.

Gulfstream are going to claim the 'worlds fastest bizjet' title by certifying to mach 0.005 faster than the X, and they claim they hold a record for their Mach 0.995 dive test, but the Citation X supposedly hit mach 1.18 by accident, during its own dive testing, but I don't think it stands as a record as there was no independant adjudication when it happened, just some slightly astonished flight test engineers, I think.

Nonetheless, I think Cessna plans to retake the MMO record from the G650 with the 'Ten' eventually, as a difference of Mach 0.005 only equates to about 3 knots, so they can just bump up the MMO 6 knots to Mach 0.93.

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roseflyer
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 7:03 pm

While only still flying for the UK Air Force, in the subsonic Airliner world, I believe the VC10 was the fastest with a cruise speed of Mach 0.886. The speed was partially its downfall because of its fuel burn exceeded the 707-320s that it was competing against.
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KELPkid
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 7:38 pm

If we're sticking to subsonic airliners, don't forget the Convair CV-990A Coronado. Mach 0.90...   Not quite a Citation X, I know, but awfully close...
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EMBQA
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 8:11 pm

As far as passenger aircraft still flying the Boeing 727 is at .90
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Max Q
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 8:45 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 18):
As far as passenger aircraft still flying the Boeing 727 is at .9

.92 Actually and I have flown it that fast.


In flight test it was taken to .96 with no issues.


The 747 Classic was taken to .99.


There are several Aircraft that can qualify for the title of 'fastest' but it also depends on whether you mean their maximum speed or normal cruise speed.


With the obvious exception of Concorde I would say the 747 is the fastest civilian Airliner, based on its maximum speed (VMO) and Mach (MMO)


More importantly it is routinely and economically operated at very high Mach numbers .86-.88



It was designed to be flown fast and still is, edging out the A380, which while fast, is not operated normally at these higher Mach numbers.
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citationjet
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Mon May 09, 2011 9:35 pm

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
Which is the fastest civil aircraft in the world?

Based on the various answers that have been given, it is obvious that the question does not have a definitite answer because of the various assumptions that can be made. For instance:

Do the airplanes have to be in current production only?
Or can they be previous production?
Do they have to be operating today? What if they no longer are flown?
Does the plane have to be certified to be considered? (The Gulfstream 650 isn't certified yet).
Is the fastest speed based on the design speed Mmo as found on the TCDS? Or is the fastest speed based on the Md speed required for certification?
Or is it the speed that it inadvertently went to during testing (beyond the requirements)?
Does civil include military models that are now operated under a civil registry?
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imiakhtar
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Tue May 10, 2011 12:40 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 16):
While only still flying for the UK Air Force, in the subsonic Airliner world, I believe the VC10 was the fastest with a cruise speed of Mach 0.886. The speed was partially its downfall because of its fuel burn exceeded the 707-320s that it was competing against.

When my uncle flew them in the 70s, they typically operated them in the .84-88M range.

I recall him mentioning that they would regularly cruise at .93M during ferry/repositioning flights, though to do so they would have to pull a number of circuit breakers.

One of the few advantages the VC-10 had over the 707 was it's superb field performance. NBO-LHR on a hot summers day never an issue. The B707 and early 747 variants would struggle.

My uncle would often laugh at his ex PAF pals struggling out of the mid-east in their PK 707s.
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Tue May 10, 2011 7:55 am

There are a few private MiG-29 out there...
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travelavnut
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Tue May 10, 2011 8:06 am

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 21):
though to do so they would have to pull a number of circuit breakers.

Why did they have to pull a few circuit breakers, because of the overspeed alarm?
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wilco737
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Tue May 10, 2011 8:39 am

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 23):
Why did they have to pull a few circuit breakers, because of the overspeed alarm?

Some airplanes have an overspeed protection. They won't let you fly into the overspeed.

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Starlionblue
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Tue May 10, 2011 9:53 am

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 20):
Do the airplanes have to be in current production only?
Or can they be previous production?
Do they have to be operating today? What if they no longer are flown?
Does the plane have to be certified to be considered? (The Gulfstream 650 isn't certified yet).
Is the fastest speed based on the design speed Mmo as found on the TCDS? Or is the fastest speed based on the Md speed required for certification?
Or is it the speed that it inadvertently went to during testing (beyond the requirements)?
Does civil include military models that are now operated under a civil registry?

Ok then. I've included only original civil aircraft, not military aircraft in civil use like private MiG-29s.

Current production only civil aircraft original certified in service speed: Gulfstream.
Current production and service only civil aircraft original certified in service speed: Citation X.
Absolute record for civil aircraft: Concorde.

Feel free to correct me.
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Tue May 10, 2011 10:27 am

The DC8 broke the sound barrier in testing .It was the first civilian airliner to go supersonic
 
travelavnut
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Tue May 10, 2011 11:12 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 24):
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 23):
Why did they have to pull a few circuit breakers, because of the overspeed alarm?

Some airplanes have an overspeed protection. They won't let you fly into the overspeed.

I know, but was this the case with the VC-10?!
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wilco737
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Tue May 10, 2011 11:29 am

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 27):
I know, but was this the case with the VC-10?!

I doubt it. I am sure they just hit the throttles, shallow descent and overspeed here we go  

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foxxray
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Tue May 10, 2011 1:01 pm

Quoting Wingscrubber (Reply 15):
Gulfstream are going to claim the 'worlds fastest bizjet' title by certifying to mach 0.005 faster than the X, and they claim they hold a record for their Mach 0.995 dive test, but the Citation X supposedly hit mach 1.18 by accident, during its own dive testing, but I don't think it stands as a record as there was no independant adjudication when it happened, just some slightly astonished flight test engineers, I think.

Nonetheless, I think Cessna plans to retake the MMO record from the G650 with the 'Ten' eventually, as a difference of Mach 0.005 only equates to about 3 knots, so they can just bump up the MMO 6 knots to Mach 0.93.

Winglets fitted Citation X is currently the fastest civil aircraft with a MMO of .945 ! The Ten will probably be similar while the G650 MMO is .925.
 
330guy
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Tue May 10, 2011 1:15 pm

I heard that when the 747 came out Boeing advertised it the fastest airliner in production, they done this to boost sales and infact the 727 was faster, but considering the 727 didnt have much trouble selling and Boeing wanted to get the 747 up and running with a bang it was just claimed that the 74 was faster, they could do this because the already produced the fastest commercial jet anyway so were really stealing the title from anyone.

Although things are very different now I guess

If thats incorrect please feel free to let me know.
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imiakhtar
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Tue May 10, 2011 3:53 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 23):
Why did they have to pull a few circuit breakers, because of the overspeed alarm?

That's correct. I believe the MMO on the VC-10 was in the region of .89M. Any faster and various bells and whistles would go off.

I'm dragging most of this from memory as my uncle passed away in '06 and all his manuals are still in Pakistan, but I seem to recall him mentioning that the autopilot on the VC-10 would struggle at speeds above .90M
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KELPkid
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Tue May 10, 2011 8:08 pm

Quoting jetpilot (Reply 26):
The DC8 broke the sound barrier in testing .It was the first civilian airliner to go supersonic

In a power dive, as I recall. That's cheating 
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HaveBlue
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Wed May 11, 2011 12:24 am

As already stated the Citation X is the current champ, though Gulfstream is hoping to steal this title with their 650.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 9):
IIRC it wasn't, also the Tu-144 couldn't super-cruise, the Concorde could do this.

Also the Tu-144 was faster than the Concorde... supercruise or not is irrelevant to whose top speed is higher.
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Wed May 11, 2011 1:45 am

Space Shuttle. (no more)
 
bond007
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Wed May 11, 2011 2:41 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 34):
Space Shuttle. (no more)

no more??

It's waiting to go up again on May 16!

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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Wed May 11, 2011 3:20 am

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 33):
Also the Tu-144 was faster than the Concorde...

As far as I know, its normal top speed was only M2.0, about the same as Concorde (or very slightly slower). One off attempts at high speeds for the purposes of research and testing surely don't count.

The TU-144LL (flying laboratory) may have gone quicker, but it was only in test-flight, rather than civil service. Plus it used military engines that were not fitted to the type in service. Concorde also did M2.23, but that doesn't count either, since it was not in revenue service at the time - and was on a test flight.

The B747-SP09 has gone supersonic however!   The caveat is that I wouldn't have wanted to be onboard it when that happened.   

Quoting Flighty (Reply 34):
Space Shuttle. (no more)

You can't be serious?   It's not a civil airliner!  
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Wed May 11, 2011 3:36 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 36):
Quoting Flighty (Reply 34):
Space Shuttle. (no more)

You can't be serious? It's not a civil airliner!

While it is not an airliner, it is civil, as in non-military. NASA is explicitly not military.
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Flighty
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Thu May 12, 2011 8:25 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 37):
While it is not an airliner, it is civil, as in non-military. NASA is explicitly not military.

It is probably the fastest thing with wings that lands on a runway. Military or not military. But it's not really in the spirit of the question. The Virgin spacecraft appears to be the winner!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Thu May 12, 2011 3:17 pm

The Space Shuttle is technically civil, is it not?   
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Thu May 12, 2011 4:22 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 7):
This would be right up there with the fastest "civil aircraft"!

Thunder City used to operate a number of English Electric Lightnings. They were the only aircraft out of the F-14, F-15, F-16, and Star fighter to be able to overtake the Concorde in cruise.
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Thu May 12, 2011 5:38 pm

Quoting foxxray (Reply 29):
Winglets fitted Citation X is currently the fastest civil aircraft with a MMO of .945 ! The Ten will probably be similar while the G650 MMO is .925.

Don't trust WIkipedia - their article is wrong   The winglet mod does not increase the Mmo of the X.... still .92

You might get a slightly higher cruise speed than without the winglets (in max cruise without the winglets, we usually get around .905 out of our X in normal atmospheric conditions), but Mmo is still the same. Part of the confusion may come from the fact that Winglet Technologies says that the winglets can increase cruise speed up to 12 kts at ISA, and 20 kts at ISA+10. What people don't realize is that you don't always have enough power to get to M.92 in the X. So the winglets don't increase Mmo, just get you closer to it by reducing induced drag.
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David L
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Thu May 12, 2011 6:04 pm

As is usually the case when such topics are discussed, we need some clarification, e.g. definitions of "fastest", "civil" and "aircraft".

Quoting zeke (Reply 40):
They were the only aircraft out of the F-14, F-15, F-16, and Star fighter to be able to overtake the Concorde in cruise.


One allegedly "intercepted" a U-2 at FL88. It probably had to glide back to base on an empty tank, though.

  
 
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Thu May 12, 2011 6:06 pm

Quoting cptspeaking (Reply 41):
What people don't realize is that you don't always have enough power to get to M.92 in the X. So the winglets don't increase Mmo, just get you closer to it by reducing induced drag.

You're just not flying it right.  
 
cptspeaking
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Thu May 12, 2011 6:18 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 43):
You're just not flying it right.  

Yeah, only M.91,what a piece of junk, right?  
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DashTrash
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Fri May 13, 2011 1:45 pm

Quoting cptspeaking (Reply 44):
Yeah, only M.91,what a piece of junk, right?

I used to laugh at guys I flew with who would complain about not seeing .92 towards the end of the flight when the aircraft was light enough to have accelerated to Mmo. They failed to look at the TAS, which was always the same, 520 +/- a couple.
 
bond007
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Fri May 13, 2011 2:48 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
It is probably the fastest thing with wings that lands on a runway. Military or not military. But it's not really in the spirit of the question. The Virgin spacecraft appears to be the winner!

Well, they are either both in the spirit of the question, or neither!

BUT .... the A-12 (pre SR-71) was designed specifically for the CIA, a civilian agency, so .....


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boeingfixer
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Fri May 13, 2011 3:11 pm

Quoting 330guy (Reply 30):
I heard that when the 747 came out Boeing advertised it the fastest airliner in production, they done this to boost sales and infact the 727 was faster, but considering the 727 didnt have much trouble selling and Boeing wanted to get the 747 up and running with a bang it was just claimed that the 74 was faster, they could do this because the already produced the fastest commercial jet anyway so were really stealing the title from anyone.

You heard wrong. The MMO for the B747 series is 0.92M while the MMO on the 727 can vary between 0.88M and 0.90M due to gross weight. Therefore the B747 Classic IS faster that the B727.

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Zkpilot
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Fri May 13, 2011 3:55 pm

The 744 is faster than the A388. Typically they cruise 0.01-0.02 faster, some airlines have since slowed 744s down to even out the flight times. It has been mentioned that LAX-Oz typically takes an extra 20-30 mins in an A380
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HaveBlue
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RE: Which Is The Fastest Civil Aircraft In The World?

Fri May 13, 2011 4:13 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 36):
You can't be serious? It's not a civil airliner!

The original post specified 'civil', not 'airliner'.  
Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
Which is the fastest civil aircraft in the world? The A380 I guess?
Quoting cpd (Reply 36):
As far as I know, its normal top speed was only M2.0, about the same as Concorde (or very slightly slower). One off attempts at high speeds for the purposes of research and testing surely don't count.
http://www.vectorsite.net/avsst.html

The Tu-144 cruised faster and had a faster top speed. That's about all it had over the Concorde, as it was way more inefficient, louder, and had to use afterburner for the entire cruise instead of just to 'punch thru' to cruise speed as the Concorde did. Interesting note I found in a post from our resident GDB here on a.net is that the "Concorde disengaged reheat after an approx 10 minute phase taking the aircraft from Mach 0.95/28,000ft to Mach 1.7/47,000ft."

Quoting cpd (Reply 36):
The TU-144LL (flying laboratory) may have gone quicker, but it was only in test-flight, rather than civil service. Plus it used military engines that were not fitted to the type in service. Concorde also did M2.23, but that doesn't count either, since it was not in revenue service at the time - and was on a test flight.

Again the original poster only specified what's the 'fastest civil aircraft in the world'. They didn't say airliner nor did they say it had to be 'cruise speed'. At least that's how I read it. Regardless though the Tu was faster on both accounts. Great thread though, lots of good opinions  
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