mcdu
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Boeing Yokes

Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:25 pm

Was looking at the cockpit photos of the 747-8 and the 787 from the Paris Airshow. I noticed the 787 keeps the new style Boeing Yoke that was introduced in 757/767 programme and is carried in the 777. However, the B747-8 keeps the traditional Yoke that is shared with the B737-2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B727-1/2,and B747-1,2,3,sp,4.

My personal preference is the classic Boeing Yoke as used in the new B747-8 for flying. The smaller new style yokes are o'kay but I wonder why Boeing changed for the 757/767/777/787?

Also the 787 appear to get a small tiller that hasn't been seen in a modern Boeing. This I think is a great change as it appears to bring the 787 into a nosewheel steer by wire setup. One of the few Airbus system I prefer to Boeing is steer by wire.
 
yeelep
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:00 pm

The 757/767/777/787 were all clean sheet designs, where as the 747-8, 737NG still use the same type certificate as the earlier models. Might be a case of if its not broke, don't fix it. Or may add certification/regulatory cost to have the newer yoke installed. My .2 cents.
 
Charlienoble
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:10 pm

Quoting mcdu (Thread starter):
Also the 787 appear to get a small tiller that hasn't been seen in a modern Boeing. This I think is a great change as it appears to bring the 787 into a nosewheel steer by wire setup. One of the few Airbus system I prefer to Boeing is steer by wire.

I don't think that the control interface (yoke vs. stick or tiller size) indicates definitively whether an airplane is "fly by wire" or not.

For example the yoke-equipped 777 is FBW; but the system is set up to behave like a conventional aircraft (ie moving the yoke simulates application of a control force) as opposed to the way the Airbus sidestick issues a command to change pitch/roll angle.

I may have it wrong, so somebody smarter than me can chime in...
"When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True Story."- Barney Stinson
 
mcdu
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:48 pm

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 2):
I don't think that the control interface (yoke vs. stick or tiller size) indicates definitively whether an airplane is "fly by wire" or not.

For example the yoke-equipped 777 is FBW; but the system is set up to behave like a conventional aircraft (ie moving the yoke simulates application of a control force) as opposed to the way the Airbus sidestick issues a command to change pitch/roll angle.

I may have confused you. I was refencing the tiller "nose gear steering" on the 787 versus previous BA designs. The typical BA tiller is large with large throw to move through a turn. The smaller tiller on the 787 leads to believe the smaller throw would be the indicator of a steer by wire system on the 787.

Yes the 777 is fly by wire. BA uses conventional aileron displacement for control input. Airbus uses input for roll rate versus displacement. Many hours flying both types and I'll take the BA method as my personal preference.
 
Charlienoble
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:27 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 3):
I may have confused you.

I am easily confused...and obviously very proud of the little that I know about this from reading books. Sorry for taking the question off course.
"When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True Story."- Barney Stinson
 
mcdu
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:31 pm

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 4):
I am easily confused.

No my fault for including a discussion of the tiller in my own yoke thread. No worries.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:14 am

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 2):
For example the yoke-equipped 777 is FBW; but the system is set up to behave like a conventional aircraft (ie moving the yoke simulates application of a control force) as opposed to the way the Airbus sidestick issues a command to change pitch/roll angle.

That's only true in roll...in pitch it has an augmented law like Airbus (but a different law).

Tom.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:47 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 6):

That's only true in roll...in pitch it has an augmented law like Airbus (but a different law).

The 747-8 is about half fly by wire. On the wing, all but the inboard aileron are fly by wire controlled actuators. The elevator has some cable and some fly by wire aspects.

With all that said, the column is all about pilot feel. A pilot needs to transition from a 747-400 to a 747-8 and have it feel virtually the same. That goes everywhere from control column forces to the yoke itself.
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Max Q
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:29 am

Just on a personal note.



I much preferred the 'feel' of the older yoke I flew with on the B727.




In my opinion it was far easier to grip and gave you more leverage, for hand flying it was unbeatable.



I wish they had kept the same yoke on the 75/67, the yoke on these Aircraft is just not as good.
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hb88
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:04 pm

What is this thing you speak of - a "yoke".

Proper aircraft controls are at the side of the pilot. The area directly in front is for the meal tray  
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:24 pm

Quoting hb88 (Reply 9):
What is this thing you speak of - a "yoke".

Proper aircraft controls are at the side of the pilot. The area directly in front is for the meal tray

Wow, stay classy. An Airbus troll in Boeing thread. Personally, I like having a yoke rather than a side stick. Now, if you gave me the choice of yoke vs center stick, I'd have to think about the stick some more.

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KPDX
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:12 am

Quoting hb88 (Reply 9):
What is this thing you speak of - a "yoke".

It's what real pilots use.

Quoting hb88 (Reply 9):
Proper aircraft controls are at the side of the pilot.

Ah, like a video game   

Nah, I like both. The Airbus sidestick is pretty convenient in itself.  
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Charlienoble
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:32 am

I always wonder...with a sidestick, what if the Captain needs to scratch an itch or grab something with his/her left hand.

Seems like a yoke would be more convenient sometimes because you can use either hand.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:40 am

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 12):
I always wonder...with a sidestick, what if the Captain needs to scratch an itch or grab something with his/her left hand.

Seems like a yoke would be more convenient sometimes because you can use either hand.

What would he need to scratch that he can't reach with either hand?  

More seriously, I think he could ask the right seater to take over for a few moments.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Charlienoble
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:48 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
What would he need to scratch that he can't reach with either hand?

LOL. There does seem to be a certain law of nature that makes a body part itch the instant that you realize it is out of reach.
"When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True Story."- Barney Stinson
 
Woof
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:13 pm

I've always felt that the use of a control column / yoke compared to a sidestick made the transition from F/O to Captain easier, as the primary flight controls are all in the same position.

Compare that to Airbus where you have to change from right hand to left hand...

Is the coin slot on an Airbus also in a different place on the Captains side, or is it central near the change machine?
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Starlionblue
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:15 pm

Quoting Woof (Reply 15):
I've always felt that the use of a control column / yoke compared to a sidestick made the transition from F/O to Captain easier, as the primary flight controls are all in the same position.

Compare that to Airbus where you have to change from right hand to left hand...

A common misconception.

Captains fly with their left hand and F/Os with their right regardless of yoke or stick. The other hand is for the throttles. So it doesn't really make a difference in that regard.

Also, going from right hand to left hand is way easier than you might think. Kinda like driving on the other side of the road.

I guess the reason it is still a yoke is a holdover from the days before powered controls when muscle was actually needed. These days you can fly the plane with two fingers.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:43 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
I guess the reason it is still a yoke is a holdover from the days before powered controls when muscle was actually needed. These days you can fly the plane with two fingers.

Not sure about other OEM's, but you can *not* fly a FBW Boeing with two fingers...the column forces can still go north of 100 lbs in some situations (by design, obviously, since it's all artificial feel).

Tom.
 
Woof
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:32 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
Captains fly with their left hand and F/Os with their right regardless of yoke or stick. The other hand is for the throttles. So it doesn't really make a difference in that regard.

Indeed, yet a sidestick (from my experience in A320 and B735 Level D sims at least) requires more precision than a yoke, and when needed, or on A/T, a yoke can be held with both hands. I'm sure you'd get used to it pretty quick, but I feel the need to defend my original statement even if it had no merit in the first place  
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Starlionblue
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:50 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 17):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
I guess the reason it is still a yoke is a holdover from the days before powered controls when muscle was actually needed. These days you can fly the plane with two fingers.

Not sure about other OEM's, but you can *not* fly a FBW Boeing with two fingers...the column forces can still go north of 100 lbs in some situations (by design, obviously, since it's all artificial feel).

Thanks for clarifying.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:42 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):

Captains fly with their left hand and F/Os with their right regardless of yoke or stick. The other hand is for the throttles. So it doesn't really make a difference in that regard.

Very true.....A common debate on this theory by most persons go on.
Its not that both hands are used on the yoke simultaneously.

Interesting yoke is the Emb series though  
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pilotpip
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:47 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 20):
Interesting yoke is the Emb series though

Yep, and it's quite comfortable. You can even throw the FBW part into the debate as the 170/190 is.
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David L
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:58 am

Quoting Woof (Reply 18):
yet a sidestick (from my experience in A320 and B735 Level D sims at least) requires more precision than a yok

Perhaps initially, until you get used to it, but the way FBW is implemented by Airbus makes the side-stick a better match than it might be in some other aircraft. Airbus pilots have often commented here on just how precisely the side-stick and FBW allow them to fly an Airbus, e.g. by "nudging" the flightpath by one pixel on the PFD and keeping it right where it is.
 
Okie
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:01 am

Quoting David L (Reply 22):
Airbus pilots have often commented here on just how precisely the side-stick and FBW allow them to fly an Airbus, e.g. by "nudging" the flightpath by one pixel on the PFD and keeping it right where it is.


On the other side of the coin is the issue as in the AF447 accident there were inputs from the side stick by the F/O that were adding to the confusion because the side sticks do not follow each other to give a visual clue as to what inputs were being made as in a yoke application.

Okie
 
hb88
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:28 am

Quoting KPDX (Reply 11):
Quoting hb88 (Reply 9):
"What is this thing you speak of - a "yoke".

Proper aircraft controls are at the side of the pilot. The area directly in front is for the meal tray"

Wow, stay classy. An Airbus troll in Boeing thread. Personally, I like having a yoke rather than a side stick. Now, if you gave me the choice of yoke vs center stick, I'd have to think about the stick some more.

I guess those of the humour-impaired missed the smiley.

"Boeing thread"? what is this thing you speak of? Threads are discussions about aircraft, not restricted to fanbois devoted to a certain manufacturer.

Anyway, interesting discussion re controls. Personally, I prefer a stick, but one which is between my knees as it is on my airplane!

Regarding the coin-slot location on Airbus flight-decks, it would be great to replace some of the annunciator tones on Airbii with a set of classic Space Invaders or Galaga audio samples...
 
Max Q
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:28 am

Quoting okie (Reply 23):

On the other side of the coin is the issue as in the AF447 accident there were inputs from the side stick by the F/O that were adding to the confusion because the side sticks do not follow each other to give a visual clue as to what inputs were being made as in a yoke application.

Well said, as humans we react to physical and sensory inputs, the Airbus design sabotages this reaction.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
MrFord
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RE: Boeing Yokes

Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:48 pm

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 12):
I always wonder...with a sidestick, what if the Captain needs to scratch an itch or grab something with his/her left hand.

Seems like a yoke would be more convenient sometimes because you can use either hand.

That's why Airbus' control law holds pitch and roll when the stick returns to neutral. They thought of everything.
Just kidding  
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