747400sp
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Is This A Normal 747sp Takeoff Roll?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:31 pm

I have read and been told, that 747sp's has pretty short takeoff rolls. Now this KAL 747sp, is using as much runway as a 747-200 and DC-10-30 on a long flight. Was it normal for 747sp's, to use this much runway?

Here is the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnAmyH4CLeM&feature=related
 
sandyb123
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RE: Is This A Normal 747sp Takeoff Roll?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:43 pm

Not sure about the specifics of the 747sp, but normal take of thrusts will be calculated to achieve optimum efficiency. In modern aircraft this is calculated in the FMC.

Sandyb123
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AR385
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RE: Is This A Normal 747sp Takeoff Roll?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:48 pm

Your question has so many variables that it´s hard to answer. In general, the 747SP had amazing take-off performance, but as the post above cites, it may have been a derated take-off, the temperature might have been too high, the altitude, etc.
 
spacecadet
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RE: Is This A Normal 747sp Takeoff Roll?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:00 pm

It's almost definitely a derated takeoff. Takeoffs at full thrust are uncommon and always have been, except maybe in the early days of jets when runways were shorter than they are now. Takeoff speeds are an exact science and aren't that difficult to calculate, so it's SOP to calculate takeoff distance based on keeping wear and tear on the engines at a minimum.

I've flown many times in my life and I don't know that I've ever experienced a full thrust takeoff.
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LN-MOW
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RE: Is This A Normal 747sp Takeoff Roll?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:00 pm

It's very heavy - you can see that from the climbout. Probably a combo of hot weather and heavy weight.
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LN-MOW
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RE: Is This A Normal 747sp Takeoff Roll?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:03 pm

It's very heavy - you can see that from the climbout. Probably a combo of hot weather and heavy weight. I remember sitting in the Møvenpick beer garden near Zurich Airport watching the SAA 747SP climb right over us fully loaded for the long trip to JNB. Man they used every inch of that runway.
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sandyb123
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RE: Is This A Normal 747sp Takeoff Roll?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:17 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
I've flown many times in my life and I don't know that I've ever experienced a full thrust takeoff.

Take any flight out of LCY. Done it in ERJ145, E190 and bae146 / avro100. Spooling to full take off thrust and then letting the breaks of is amazing! And that climb out west with the turn just after take off.... Yeee haaaa. Would love to do this in one of the BA A318s.

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flight152
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RE: Is This A Normal 747sp Takeoff Roll?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:21 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
I've flown many times in my life and I don't know that I've ever experienced a full thrust takeoff.

And you would know this how?
 
AA737-823
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RE: Is This A Normal 747sp Takeoff Roll?

Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:09 pm

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 7):
And you would know this how?

It's what he just said- he DOESN'T KNOW.
But as far as observation from the back of the plane, engine noise is the best way. Once you've made a few hundred flights, OR work on jet engines for a living, OR both, you can generally tell the difference between 85% N1 and 98%.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Is This A Normal 747sp Takeoff Roll?

Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:44 am

Does not seem unusual to me.
Remember they are probably using reduced trust also which will increase the take-off distance.

I recall during the days United ran the 747SP to SYD, that bird would take up virtually the entire 25R length getting airborne barely abeam the AA hangars.
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Gasman
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RE: Is This A Normal 747sp Takeoff Roll?

Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:07 am

QF used to fly them trans-tasman. I remember watching them belt out of WLG's 5000' runway like an F-16 on steroids. Admittedly on those routes they would've been well below MTOW.
 
Flighty
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RE: Is This A Normal 747sp Takeoff Roll?

Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:49 am

There was a trip report of the Iran Air trip DAM-CCS, a lengthy leg for a 747SP. The writer said the takeoff was his longest ever!
 
PGNCS
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RE: Is This A Normal 747sp Takeoff Roll?

Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:23 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
I've flown many times in my life and I don't know that I've ever experienced a full thrust takeoff.

How would you know unless you asked the crew?

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
Quoting Flight152 (Reply 7):
And you would know this how?

It's what he just said- he DOESN'T KNOW.

Earlier in his post he says "It's almost definitely a derated takeoff. Takeoffs at full thrust are uncommon and always have been," which in my way of thinking (and Flight152's) implies that it's so unusual that he has likely not experienced one despite being an experienced passenger. Flight152 is pointing out that there's no way for him to know unless he asked, and if he had asked he would have almost certainly told us so.

If you have flown a lot you almost certainly have experienced one. I did two last week.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
But as far as observation from the back of the plane, engine noise is the best way. Once you've made a few hundred flights, OR work on jet engines for a living, OR both, you can generally tell the difference between 85% N1 and 98%.

An untrained person would not be able to do this unless they flew the same type of aircraft repetitively, and I doubt that even the best mechanic could determine this if they flew on an airplane/engine combination they didn't work on. When I sit in the back I can't tell, but then again I don't really care or pay particular attention either. Since there are so many derate possibilities (we'll derate to just below TOGA if that's the only derate available) I doubt on any given day that the vast majority of people could tell for sure if it's derated or not. In your example you might be derated to 97% N1. I doubt that anyone could determine the difference between 97% and 98% N1 on any engine from the passenger cabin with any degree of statistically valid accuracy.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Does not seem unusual to me.

It's a very heavy four engine plane; it doesn't seem unusual to me either, and certainly my experience with the 744 bears it out as not being excessive at heavy weight (like the SP, the 744 is also like a scalded ape at low weights.) I, of course, never flew the SP and if someone here has I would definitely defer to their expertise.

Quoting gasman (Reply 10):
Admittedly on those routes they would've been well below MTOW.

Correct. Four engine aircraft, including 747s, are absolute pigs on a heavyweight takeoff and in the climb as well. It's an artifact of engine-out performance requirements.
 
hal9213
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RE: Is This A Normal 747sp Takeoff Roll?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:24 pm

So, guys, would you say, this is a derated takeoff, too? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThoZNxy2JZk
 
UAL747
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RE: Is This A Normal 747sp Takeoff Roll?

Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:45 pm

35 second take off roll on a flight from LAX-SEL or LAX-NRT is hardly a slow takeoff. Remember that LAX-SYD takeoffs can generally last up and around a minute!

Everything seems normal to me.

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