windshear
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Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:34 am

I think the HGS system introduced by Boeing, is an amazing feature that enhance safety and pilot confidence.

Why not more interest in the system from 737NG owners like KLM and the likes?

Also is the system offered in the larger aircraft? I mean why no HGS in the 748i?

Is this pilot pride... Or?

Thanks!
Boaz
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
travelavnut
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:11 am

Forgive my ignorance, but what does HGC exactly entail?
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windshear
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:15 am

Sorry HGS is the airliner version of head up displays(HUD in military terms).

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
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9MMPQ
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:48 pm

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" i suppose ...

Airlines are carefully looking at what they spend, especially in these times. In the end it's probably nice to have but not very essential hence i wouldn't expect an overwhelming response to it.
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YokoTsuno
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:54 pm

Are reaction times so critical for an airline pilot? I guess you have to ask a pilot, but I assume that, if the benefits, in this case the gain in pilot reaction time because of the improved ergonomics, do not have a noticeable impact on the safety, it is not worth the investment.

I once got a rental car with an overhead display that had speed, navigation, and some other information in the windshield. Although a cool thing to boast about to you friends, I failed to see the added value, at least for a car. Since navigation can also be communicated by voice, car speed can be gauged, and all other stuff is seems obsolete, how exactly does this add anything to safety, assuming that is the intention of it all?
 
yeelep
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:55 pm

So who has it? In 1989, Alaska Airlines started installing HGS and currently has it in their entire fleet of 737's.

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wilco737
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:02 pm

Quoting windshear (Thread starter):

I never missed it. I guess it is not used too many times. Flying with the normal instruments is just fine for me. I never tried it with a HUG as all the planes I have flown simply don't have it.

wilco737
  
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:59 pm

Lots of airlines and airplanes have a HUD. It's optional on the 737 and many major customers have it including WN, AS, AA and DL among others. Two HUDs are standard on all 787s, and I'm sure all future new designs. I guess I'm missing the point of the thread.
 
planejamie
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:14 pm

As a future commercial pilot, I wouldn't want one to be honest. As I'm currently going for my PPL, from the ground up, we're taught how to just glance at instruments to check everything (okay, in a commercial airliner more is going on) but do you really need the speed, altitude, heading etc right in front of your head? I can't think of any accident where a HUD would have caused the accident to be avoided
 
Alias1024
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:50 am

Quoting planejamie (Reply 8):
As a future commercial pilot, I wouldn't want one to be honest. As I'm currently going for my PPL, from the ground up, we're taught how to just glance at instruments to check everything (okay, in a commercial airliner more is going on) but do you really need the speed, altitude, heading etc right in front of your head? I can't think of any accident where a HUD would have caused the accident to be avoided

The HGS allows for CAT IIIa approach minimums without having an autoland system. It can also get you lower takeoff minimums on some runways.
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PHLapproach
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:24 am

Last 2 DL 738 Crews I flew up front with. Capt used it for at least one phase during both flights. First time guy used it for Dep out of ATL in VMC. 2nd guy last Friday used it for Dep out of PHL, had it down the whole cruise (probably cause he clipped the sun shade for the HGS to it and used it to tone down the sun as it was blinding us straight on the whole flight) then used it for a visual to 27L at ATL. I wish I could get a better view of it on the way down.
 
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:51 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 9):
Quoting planejamie (Reply 8):
As a future commercial pilot, I wouldn't want one to be honest. As I'm currently going for my PPL, from the ground up, we're taught how to just glance at instruments to check everything (okay, in a commercial airliner more is going on) but do you really need the speed, altitude, heading etc right in front of your head? I can't think of any accident where a HUD would have caused the accident to be avoided

The HGS allows for CAT IIIa approach minimums without having an autoland system. It can also get you lower takeoff minimums on some runways.

This is why UPS used it on their B727-100QF.

Jan
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nomadd22
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:48 pm

My brother's 172 has an HUD. It's an iPhone app that reverses a GPS instrument display so you can mount it on the dash and see the reflection in the window. It's worth the 99 cents.
Anon
 
Fabo
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:16 pm

Quoting planejamie (Reply 8):
As I'm currently going for my PPL, from the ground up, we're taught how to just glance at instruments to check everything

Flying VFR is in many ways different to flying IFR. As you move to IFR, you will be taught to just look at your instruments, apart from some phases such as take-off and landing. Practically all airliner flying is in IFR.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 12):
My brother's 172 has an HUD. It's an iPhone app that reverses a GPS instrument display so you can mount it on the dash and see the reflection in the window. It's worth the 99 cents.

I have similar in my phone for my car, but it only really works in dark. Is this app of yours working well in daylight?


To the topic, I have only used HUGS in simulators, but I like the fact that you can see some aspects of your flight, especially speed, without having to move your attention from what is in front of you (useful for keeping straight on takeoff and for looking the runway up on approach. The price of such an optional goodie may not warrant its usefulness by the beancounters though.
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26point2
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:35 pm

We have HGS with EVS installed on the bizjet. I use the HGS every day and all day. Rarely looking down at the PFD.

Either I missed it or it hasn't been pointed out that HGS is one option, a monochrome repeater of the PFD on a glass screen. Additionally an Enhanced Vision Display, an infa red image, is superimposed onto the display to help the pilot see during low visibility or at night. It's not "X Ray Vision" but it helps. I would say once or twice per year it allows us to see the runway during an approach where without EVS we would be making a missed approach. EVS runway image typically comes into view 1/4 to 1/2 mile before a visual is made and works best in hazy or foggy conditions. Doesn't do much for us in rain or snow.

There are amended approach minimums (100' agl as we are not CAT 2 or 3 qualified), specific crew actions and standard calls for an EVS approach and we train on it every 6 months. Not something one would try without familiarity.

HGS and EVS are not always installed together. Many have HGS without EVS. Easy to pick out the guys with EVS...look for the camera mounted on the nose usually just below the glareshield, or on Gulfstream, just forward of the nose gear.

I was told the HVS/EVS is a $500,000 option on our type. Perhaps that explains why more airlines don't use it.

[Edited 2011-11-15 07:48:30]
 
planejamie
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:12 pm

Quoting Fabo (Reply 13):
Flying VFR is in many ways different to flying IFR. As you move to IFR, you will be taught to just look at your instruments, apart from some phases such as take-off and landing. Practically all airliner flying is in IFR.

True, but even then, you wouldn't really need a HUD and even if you could land in very poor visibility - taxiing to the gate and other ground movements etc would probably get restricted quite a bit...

Maybe if the HUD had a colour display (e.g. a replication of the regular artificial horizon/speed/altitude display and then also the heading/navigation display) I think it would appeal more to me. With OLED I imagine it's possible (LCD would probably be a bit of a nightmare) - the Super AMOLED (OLED) display on my phone is certainly very clear and crisp and I think it would work quite well with a HUD.

Then again, it's not necessary, just what I would say is a "cool toy to have", bit like IFE isn't necessary, just a cool toy for the passengers to have fitted.
 
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:51 pm

On my current job, flying E-Jets (E190/195), we are recommended to use the HGS on all flight phases, IMC or VMC.

My personal view is that it is a very nice feature, but from time to time I like to dim out the brightness or turn it off all together, as it is somehow addicting, to keep my visual lookout sharp.

On the other hand, precision approaches are easily done, and we can hand fly CAT II approaches with it and situational awareness is greatly enhanced, especially TCAS, windshear and EGPWS escape manoeuvres.
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nomadd22
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:15 am

Quoting Fabo (Reply 13):
Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 12):
My brother's 172 has an HUD. It's an iPhone app that reverses a GPS instrument display so you can mount it on the dash and see the reflection in the window. It's worth the 99 cents.

I have similar in my phone for my car, but it only really works in dark. Is this app of yours working well in daylight?

Not yet. A lot of folks are watching the Pioneer AR HUD due out next year. Speculation is around $500.
Anon
 
bonusonus
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:39 pm

I know AF uses them on their A380s. Is it standard on all A380s?
 
windshear
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:00 pm

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 3):
Airlines are carefully looking at what they spend, especially in these times. In the end it's probably nice to have but not very essential hence i wouldn't expect an overwhelming response to it.

Well I understand that you can fly with out it... How ever how can you as an airline, simply ignore a feature that has obvious safety benefits? The HUGS(sorry for the missing U) is certified to be hand flown in CAT III conditions!
Albeit it's done automatically in other planes, but I think it shows the strength and confidence the HUGS can give a crew.

I am surprised that none of the 748is or 77Ws I have seen cockpit shots of do not have it, so this is why I was wondering whether or not Boeing offers it on those models.

Military planes have used this for ages! The F16 is ancient and has a really good HUD, so again, the "don't fix if it ain't broken" slur simply isn't applicable in this case, because the civil aviation business might just be decades behind the military industry.

As for the A380 is this really offered as an option?

Boaz.

[Edited 2011-11-19 04:03:54]
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
windshear
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:06 pm

Quoting yeelep (Reply 5):
So who has it?

I have also seen a SAS -700 or -600 with HUGS installed, and I think also Qantas has it??
About Southwest, I did not see any cockpit shots with this option installed, but who knows...
AA and DL for sure is flying with it.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:30 pm

Quoting windshear (Reply 19):
The HUGS(sorry for the missing U)

HGS is correct.
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yeelep
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:18 pm

Quoting windshear (Reply 20):

Southwest has it. Its also standard on the 787.
 
windshear
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:31 pm

Ok, so basically more US airlines use it.

A pilot here said that he uses the instruments more for checking or scanning while landing, and I understand, that if pilots prefer to fly by hand, then there is no need for HGS until you hit low vis. Conditions....

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
mandala499
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:29 pm

Quoting windshear (Reply 19):
How ever how can you as an airline, simply ignore a feature that has obvious safety benefits?

Well, we only have CAT I ILS where I am, and not all runways have it, the rest are VORDME approaches, or worse, no Instrument Approach... No benefit for HGS here...
When viz is a problem (which is only a very small % of the numbers of landings), 4/5 of the time it's due to rain, which usually only go below 1000m viz for about 15-20 mins, then increases to 1500-2000m viz until rain goes away altogether. The remaining 1/5th, is basically during smog season, when there are forest fires etc... creating a haze than can reduce viz to 200m (800m-1500m in most cases), and in a lot of cases, we just reschedule to go in the evening when viz is usually better in that season.
Would I therefore, benefit by forking out an extra 500,000 USD, given my operating environment? Why should I be forced to fork out that amount of money and carry that weight around?

Quoting windshear (Reply 19):
Military planes have used this for ages! The F16 is ancient and has a really good HUD, so again, the "don't fix if it ain't broken" slur simply isn't applicable in this case, because the civil aviation business might just be decades behind the military industry.

No, different circumstances. In addition to assist in instrumentation for flying, a combat aircraft is there to shoot stuff, HUD is used to shoot at things !   

Mandala499
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windshear
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:03 pm

LOL fair enough!
I guess avionics still is no match for a pair of pilot eyes  

Boaz.
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larshjort
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:01 pm

I believe Cimber Sterling has a couple of CRJ's installed with the system.

/Lars
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barney captain
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:21 pm

The accuracy at which you can hand fly an ILS using the HGS is amazing. As a demonstration in the SIM, we hand flew an ILS to zero-zero mins, stopped the aircraft, brought up the visibility - and we were right on the center line. Oh, and that was with an engine shut down.
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windshear
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:17 pm

It looks like the captains flying with HGS enjoy the this tool!

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ameri...d=98084a1ae95dd37622d3add196fcd9c8

Even in clear sky conditions!

Boaz.
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Max Q
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:45 am

I have never used one but would like to, I think it is a very beneficial safety aid. As B Ca pointed out, if you can handfly an ILS to zero zero even as just a demonstration that is an impressive capability. With the added benefit of enhanced vision I think they will soon become indispensable.


The concept of being able to look out the window constantly on approach and have all the information required in front of your eyes focused on infinity without having to constantly glance in and out is a huge improvement.


There is a good reason why they are standard (for CA and FO) on the 787.



Hope i have the opportunity to use them.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:38 am

If we look beyond current HGS researchers are looking at much more advanced vision systems that would show terrain and traffic at night or in low visibility. Basically the windows would also be monitors that display stuff. Looking for the traffic? Neatly highlighted on the "window" even if it is behind a cloud. Can't tell where that hill is because it's the middle of the night? No problem as the "window" shows it as if it were daylight.

Now that's cool stuff. Decades away though I'm sure.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
26point2
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:12 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 30):
Now that's cool stuff. Decades away though I'm sure.

Bombardier is working on approval of HUD with the synthetic vision image. New Global 7000 and 8000 are to have this I believe.
 
BMI727
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:55 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 31):
Bombardier is working on approval of HUD with the synthetic vision image. New Global 7000 and 8000 are to have this I believe.

Sounds like it would be an evolution of the EVS Gulfstream offers.
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Fabo
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:22 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 30):
Now that's cool stuff. Decades away though I'm sure.

Closer than you would think.
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737tdi
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:59 pm

Boy, there is some differing info. here.

One really good little bit of info. is missing here or lightly touched upon. Aircraft with HGS can take off in fog/inclement weather when other aircraft are sitting at the gate waiting. It does add a lot to other portions of the flight envelope but when you can get your planes headed to their destinations on time and the others can't???? WN and AS can do CAT III approaches when the aircraft is not really designed to do so, I.E. 2 channel autopilot and uncoupled. Makes for a better 737 without a complete system overhaul.

737tdi
 
N243NW
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:14 am

Quoting windshear (Reply 28):
It looks like the captains flying with HGS enjoy the this tool!

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ameri...d=98084a1ae95dd37622d3add196fcd9c8

Even in clear sky conditions!

SOP is to have the HGS on during all takeoffs and landings, due to the tailstrike protection feature it offers.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 34):
WN and AS can do CAT III approaches

Same with AA. None of our 737s have autoland available, since the aircraft can be hand-flown to CAT III mins using the HGS.
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:54 am

Quoting Fabo (Reply 33):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 30):
Now that's cool stuff. Decades away though I'm sure.

Closer than you would think.

Talking feasibility, sure. I mean it is feasible today. However I don't think widespread usage is anywhere near.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
windshear
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:46 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 30):
Basically the windows would also be monitors that display stuff. Looking for the traffic?

Now that is cool!

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 34):
ircraft with HGS can take off in fog/inclement weather when other aircraft are sitting at the gate waiting.

I forgot about take off!

Quoting N243NW (Reply 35):
SOP is to have the HGS on during all takeoffs and landings, due to the tailstrike protection feature it offers.

Another element I didn't know, thank you!
But this again makes me wonder why the 77W is not equipped with this feature?!
Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
N243NW
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:58 pm

Quoting windshear (Reply 37):

Another element I didn't know, thank you!

My pleasure. That's why this forum's here, right?

Quoting windshear (Reply 37):
But this again makes me wonder why the 77W is not equipped with this feature?!

On the 777, the aircraft's FBW system automatically inputs a TSP CMD (tailstrike protection command) if it senses a tailstrike is imminent. The pilot flying has the option to ignore the command and pull farther back if he/she chooses, however. The 77W also has the semi-levered main gear that is a big help toward achieving a higher AoA during rotation.
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
N243NW
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:40 am

Quoting yeelep (Reply 5):
Combiner is located above captains position. Large bulbous gray item.

Also, not to poke at semantics, but the combiner is actually the glass surface that the pilot looks through. The large gray protrusion in the ceiling is typically referred to as the overhead unit (OHU). I don't recall ever hearing the OHU referred to as the combiner.
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
yeelep
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:00 pm

Quoting N243NW (Reply 39):

Thanks for pointing that out, brain fart on my part.
 
windshear
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:30 am

Quoting N243NW (Reply 38):
My pleasure. That's why this forum's here, right?

Yes!  
Quoting N243NW (Reply 38):
On the 777, the aircraft's FBW system automatically inputs a TSP CMD (tailstrike protection command) if it senses a tailstrike is imminent.

Wow!!

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
737tdi
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RE: Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?

Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:04 am

One thing that you may not have noticed. Compare the two pics. above and you will notice that there are 2 different models of HGS installed. The top is a 2350 and the bottom is a 4000. I know it's hard to tell with the cover on the combiner in the lower pic but you can see the release knob for the combiner. Just thought you might like to know.

I don't remember the line number of when it changed but it was a block change by Boeing, there were a ton of changes made at this time. I don't have access to our MM's or I could be more specific.

737tdi

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