747400sp
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Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:52 am

I know Pan Am is just a tv show, but when I look at the take off scenes, when fire is coming out the engines of the 707s, I see that the engines are JT-4s. When EA-6bs would take off my old ship, there exhaust would turn fire orange, and think that is due to it having turbo jets. So did turbo jet powered 707s do the same thing?
 
e38
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:21 am

Quoting 747400sp (thread starter), "So did turbo jet powered 707s do the same thing?"

J.D. that's a good question. I have watched that show exactly one time (don't intend to watch it again) and I was completely amazed at how inaccurate everything was with regard to airplanes, crews, airline operations, etc.

e38
 
474218
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:35 am

The only thing I ever saw coming out of those old engines was lots of "black smoke".
 
planejamie
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:19 pm

I'll have to take a closer look as it comes to BBC Two tomorrow night (first two episodes being shown and nice thing about the BBC is no adverts). Not being from that era, and having not seen a 707 take off before (certainly not one with turbojets either then!) it'll be interesting to see. I did know that a lot of those older aircraft had a hell of a lot of black smoke coming from them and I understand that one aircraft type (not sure which) caused some people to phone emergency services regularly thinking an aircraft was on fire or something because of the intensity of it.

Going of a TV show might not be all that accurate - even Air Crash Investigation had a blooper the other day (one with the A320 crash during a demonstration flight) on the diagram of the A320 it said "Turbojet" rather than "Turbofan". I also found it amusing when they reproduced the cabin of the BA 777 that landed at LHR a few years back with both engines gone, strangely reminiscent of a 70s/80s A300 interior...
 
474218
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:37 pm

Quoting planejamie (Reply 3):
I'll have to take a closer look as it comes to BBC Two tomorrow night (first two episodes being shown and nice thing about the BBC is no adverts).

I will take averts of your TV tax any day!
 
747400sp
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:13 am

Quoting planejamie (Reply 3):
I did know that a lot of those older aircraft had a hell of a lot of black smoke coming from them and I understand that one aircraft type (not sure which) caused some people to phone emergency services regularly thinking an aircraft was on fire or something because of the intensity of it.

That a/c, would be a Convair 880/990.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:42 am

In the right low light and humidity conditions, I've seen B707 and DC-8 aircraft have a redish glow out the back of the engines on takeoff. I've even got some very old photo slides around here somewhere that show a JAL B747-100 doing the same thing on Guam. The interesting thing is that I did not notice a glow when I took the picture, only in the slide after it was developed.

I've not watched the TV show. But I'd suspect one writer or director or special effects designer once saw one picture of such an event, and puts the effect into every takeoff shot.
 
baroque
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:59 am

FWIW in WWII, the way to tell an ME262 strip from one with piston engines was the ME262 had concrete runways because the engines tended to set asphalt runways on fire. So the Alled fighters hung around the concrete strips to catch the ME262 when they were landing or taking off. Mind you those engines were about 30% more thirsty than the Nenes so the energy had to go somewhere.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:57 am

Quoting e38 (Reply 1):
I have watched that show exactly one time (don't intend to watch it again) and I was completely amazed at how inaccurate everything was with regard to airplanes, crews, airline operations, etc.

I'm never amazed by how inaccurate TV shows are about anything. 
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
pilotpip
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:46 pm

Completely plausible. It's not uncommon to see the combustion chamber of modern turbofans glowing when it's dark outside and you're sitting at the right angle.
DMI
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:15 am

In the interests of science I took a look at episode 1 online. Looks like some TV art director got carried away with the CGI. They appear to have assumed the multi-lobe silencer is some kind of gas burner and that the various tubes lit up individually with blue flame. Just as bad, the cabin aisle looks about twice as wide as it should. On the plus side, the flightdeck set they've used looks quite realistic.

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 9):
Completely plausible. It's not uncommon to see the combustion chamber of modern turbofans glowing when it's dark outside and you're sitting at the right angle.

Except the takeoff shot referred too was in bright sunlight....

Quoting 474218 (Reply 4):
I will take averts of your TV tax any day!

Who do you think pays for all those commercials you have to sit through? OK, you don't notice paying for them, but the cost is in the retail price of everything you buy. Give me advert free BBC any time, licence fee or not. PanAm episodes run for about 42 minutes in the UK, so that makes 18 minutes of ads I don't have to watch.  
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:54 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 10):
On the plus side, the flightdeck set they've used looks quite realistic.

Probably easy to just buy a 707 cockpit.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 10):
Just as bad, the cabin aisle looks about twice as wide as it should.

This might be for narrative purposes. In the West Wing TV show, the corridors were about twice as wide as in the actual West Wing. That way the characters could walk and talk.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
rfields5421
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:35 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 10):
Just as bad, the cabin aisle looks about twice as wide as it should.
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
the corridors were about twice as wide as in the actual West Wing. That way the characters could walk and talk.

Wide aisles and corridors are very common in films. There simply isn't enough room in a normal sized aircraft aisle for the staging/ blocking necessary to present the characters to interact with each other and the cameras and lighting.

The same with most normal building corridors.
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:10 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
Probably easy to just buy a 707 cockpit.

Apparently they built a lifesize 707 set, in a hangar in Brooklyn Navy Yard. But it certainly looks like they've used panels from the real thing.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
This might be for narrative purposes. In the West Wing TV show, the corridors were about twice as wide as in the actual West Wing. That way the characters could walk and talk.

I suppose you need enough space for the film crew to move about, especially if it was shot in a full size cabin mockup. I suspect they wanted the cabin to look more spacious than it really was to convey the sense of luxury too. The flightdeck looks realistically cramped in comparison. The lighting was hyper real too, everything glows, in exactly the way a real aircraft interior doesn't.
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
vc10
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:37 pm

It seems to me a big error in the opening series was that if this was based in the 1960s then the flight deck crew [for a trans atlatic flight] should have included a navigator, as INS only came in at the end of the 1960s
 
georgiaame
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:13 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 2):
The only thing I ever saw coming out of those old engines was lots of "black smoke".

Ditto. As a precocious 8 year old, I loved watching those things taking off, and remember asking my father why there was no fire coming out of the engines. Ever. Lots and lots of really black smoke, and a hell of a lot of noise. My mother used to hang clothes out to dry, until the jets arrived at Idlewild. The soot in the landing pattern to 13r was pretty bad until the arrival of the 747s. The smoke, by the way, was apparently an excellent flight avoidance system for the pilots at altitude. (The TV series aircraft are way ahead of their time, smokeless at cruise) But alas, no fire, and when there was, it meant trouble. And speaking of errors, did the 707-100s have tail skids? I don't remember them until we got the real, intercontinental planes (-300s). Clipper Majestic seems to have one (along with 36"+ wide aisles).
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
timz
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:09 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 15):
did the 707-100s have tail skids?

If you mean did they have ventral fins, they didn't have them when new. Probably got them around 1961?
 
n604ff
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:44 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 14):
It seems to me a big error in the opening series was that if this was based in the 1960s then the flight deck crew [for a trans atlatic flight] should have included a navigator, as INS only came in at the end of the 1960s

To my knowledge, Pan Am removed the navigator in the early/mid 1960's; before INS. Doppler and Loran were used, and Omega was phased in later. Pan Am 707's weren't equipped with INS except for N880PA which made the 25th anniversary flight in 1983. Can anyone confirm this?




I just want to know where all the CGI creators hid all of the DC-8's.
 
my235
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:11 pm

The original 707-121 were powered by JT3C-6 - (Water Injection)

That did increase the amount of black smoke out the back. And sounds quite cool.  
 
vc10
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:00 pm

To my knowledge, Pan Am removed the navigator in the early/mid 1960's; before INS. Doppler and Loran were used, and Omega was phased in later. Pan Am 707's weren't equipped with INS except for N880PA which made the 25th anniversary flight in 1983. Can anyone confirm this?



Thanks for that but are you sure they only removed the specialist job, but carried an extra pilot instead. I ask this as BOAC in the late 1950s early 1960s also replaced straight Navs and replaced them with pilot /nav, and like you mentioned on the North Atlantic they used doppler and Loran along with other aids, but this information was then plotted onto a chart from which new heading info was given to the pilot on a bit of paper.

However different control authorities might have had different rules

Thanks again little vc10
 
rfields5421
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:47 am

Jan 30, 1974 - B707 Clipper 806 crashed short of the runway at Pago Pago American Samoa - NSTU / PPG - on a flight from ANZ - HNL - flight crew consisted of four people - a Captain, a First Officer, a Third Officer and a Flight Engineer. The Third Officer acted as co-pilot on the flight and the First Officer acted as Navigator while in the jump seat. The Third Officer was older than the First Officer and was initially a navigator with Pan Am who moved up to pilot when the specialist position was eliminated.

When I was on Guam in 1972-74, Pan Am B707 and B747 crews flying to the island were three pilots and a flight engineer. Many of the pilots were also originally navigators.
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:01 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 5):


Quoting planejamie (Reply 3):
I did know that a lot of those older aircraft had a hell of a lot of black smoke coming from them and I understand that one aircraft type (not sure which) caused some people to phone emergency services regularly thinking an aircraft was on fire or something because of the intensity of it.

That a/c, would be a Convair 880/990.

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747400sp
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RE: Did Turbojet 707s Have Fire Coming Their Engines.

Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:54 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 15):
Clipper Majestic seems to have one (along with 36"+ wide aisles).

I believe Clipper Majestic was a 707 321 with JT4s.

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