eastern023
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Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:47 am

Is this a general safety practice to take off at night witht the tail fin lights on usually showing off the airline's logo? Or is it just a corporate policy to do it to display cthe company's colors. I've seen some airplanes taking off at night with those lights off, so is it maybe up to each pilot? I apprecite some of the pilots to explain...
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UAL747
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:15 am

Quoting eastern023 (Thread starter):
Or is it just a corporate policy to do it to display cthe company's colors. I've seen some airplanes taking off at night with those lights off, so is it maybe up to each pilot? I apprecite some of the pilots to explain...

Not a pilot, but some airline's policy is to have them on, some off. AA comes to mind of not having them on at night, UA seems to keep theirs on.

UAL
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loggat
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:30 am

DL pilots generally keep theirs off as a kind of silent protest to management in attempt to get their concessionary contract (circa 2003) back. I believe UAL pilots have adopted this too. Don't shoot the messenger, it's just what I've heard out there. I'm sure management would love to have the logo lights on at night for their own free advertising. Unless the weight savings from removing 2 light bulbs yields significant fuel savings.
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Polot
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:35 am

Quoting loggat (Reply 2):
Unless the weight savings from removing 2 light bulbs yields significant fuel savings.

It's not weight savings that drive removing the bulbs (as I believe AA has done). It's the maintenance savings. No need to keep spares of the bulb and pay someone to go up and change them when they could be doing more important work.
 
26point2
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:27 am

These are called "Logo Lights". They also help to make the plane more visible to other pilots.
 
Max Q
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:12 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):

Not a pilot, but some airline's policy is to have them on, some off. AA comes to mind of not having them on at night

What would be the point of having them then ?



It's all about maximum visibility, I use every exterior light we have available up to 18000 feet where I will turn of all but the strobes and nav / position lights.



It's important to be seen !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
UAL747
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:56 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
What would be the point of having them then ?



Come with them? Some airlines use them. I think it's not an option per se, but standard equipment.
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
barney captain
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:57 am

Quoting eastern023 (Thread starter):
Is this a general safety practice to take off at night witht the tail fin

Tail fin?

Are you possibly referring to the horizontal stabilizer?  
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Starlionblue
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:42 am

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 7):
Quoting eastern023 (Thread starter):
Is this a general safety practice to take off at night witht the tail fin

Tail fin?

Are you possibly referring to the horizontal stabilizer?

I think he's talking about the vertical stabilizer, aka the tail fin.
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DBCooper
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:12 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
It's all about maximum visibility, I use every exterior light we have available up to 18000 feet where I will turn of all but the strobes and nav / position lights.

I completely agree...and would do the same.

I would make it madatory!

It made me wonder if the US Air accident in LAX would have been avoided if they had been able to spot a better lit turboprop on the runway before they ran into it.


- DBC
 
PGNCS
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:51 pm

Quoting loggat (Reply 2):
DL pilots generally keep theirs off as a kind of silent protest to management in attempt to get their concessionary contract (circa 2003) back. I believe UAL pilots have adopted this too. Don't shoot the messenger, it's just what I've heard out there.

OK, I won't shoot you, but don't pass on an inaccurate message please. You do realize many aircraft do not have logo lights installed, right? Pilots configure lights per their manuals, and the manual sets normally give the Captain some leeway in certain visibility conditions: maybe you don't want all your lights on breaking out of a Cat III, maybe turning on strobes on the runway at night is blinding pilots in other aircraft sitting in line. Some airlines allow this flexibility, some don't. I have flown for a US major for over 20 years, have flown on the jumpseat of every other major airline and most regional operators, have trained pilots from literally dozens of airlines around the world, and I have never seen anyone refusing to turn on the logo light as a protest of some sort. It may have happened sporadically, but it is certainly not the default as you imply.

To sum up: I don't personally know of any pilots who would like to increase their chances of a collision by not turning on logo lights as some kind of work action. I'm not saying it has never happened, but it is certainly the exception to the rule.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
It's all about maximum visibility, I use every exterior light we have available up to 18000 feet where I will turn of all but the strobes and nav / position lights.



It's important to be seen !

You have basically outlined an excellent standard philosophy, and I agree with you that it's important.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
What would be the point of having them then ?




Come with them? Some airlines use them. I think it's not an option per se, but standard equipment.
Quoting DBCooper (Reply 9):
I would make it madatory!

On the majority of aircraft logo lights are optional equipment, and some airlines have deactivated the systems to minimize maintenance expense. They were designed to spotlight the logo on the tail for marketing purposes; they add weight and complexity to the aircraft, and many airlines decided that the expense was not worth it. In today's crowded skies I like them just for the incresed visibility.
 
Horstroad
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:29 pm

in some parts of the world it is better to have them on to be identified as a civil aircraft and not being shot.
 
474218
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:42 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
Come with them? Some airlines use them. I think it's not an option per se, but standard equipment.

They were an option on the L-1011!
 
EMBQA
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:33 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):

Logo lights are an option and not all aircraft have them. When I was at an airline only 50% of the fleet had them.
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Max Q
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:32 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 10):
maybe turning on strobes on the runway at night is blinding pilots in other aircraft sitting in line.

I have heard this reasoning before and it's just not valid, if you find the strobes to be blinding then don't look at them



It is far more important to be highly visible to all other traffic
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:46 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 14):

I have heard this reasoning before and it's just not valid, if you find the strobes to be blinding then don't look at them

It is totally valid. You don't have to look at a strobe to be totally blinded by it. The light bounces quite easily, especially when a plane is on a concrete surface. The only time I have strobes on during ground operations is on the runway, either for take-off or when crossing a runway.

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XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:00 am

Quoting loggat (Reply 2):

wrong wrong wrong, and did I mention wrong? Most aircraft in the Delta fleet do not have them installed, and up until recently the policy was not to run them to save money. It is now corporate policy to run the logo lights at nighton aircraft that have them installed (which is only a select few).
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Max Q
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:55 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 15):


It is totally valid. You don't have to look at a strobe to be totally blinded by it. The light bounces quite easily, especially when a plane is on a concrete surface. The only time I have strobes on during ground operations is on the runway, either for take-off or when crossing a runway.

Never been 'blinded by strobes' in 32 years of flying. I guess I don't spend a lot of time looking at them.



Of course you only have them on on the runway or crossing a runway.



You shouldn't taxi around with them on.
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seven3seven
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:46 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 14):
I have heard this reasoning before and it's just not valid, if you find the strobes to be blinding then don't look at them

I find your need to have them on long before you enter the runway a total pain in the ass and highly annoying.

Blinding? No. But annoying as hell and a complete lack of situational awareness on your part to keep then on with others around.

Turn them on when you start your takeoff roll
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XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:54 am

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 18):

He never said he would have them on long before he entered the runway... only on entering or when crossing a runway.

That is standard practice among many carriers (including my own as well as my previous carrier) and IMO very good technique. If I'm on a runway, I'm flashing.

There are quite a few unnecessarily dead people who would agree with this practice as well...
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seven3seven
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:34 am

Name one fatal accident which would have been prevented by strobes

[Edited 2011-12-17 21:35:18]
My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
 
AJ
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:50 am

The 737 landing on the Metroliner at LAX?
 
Nomik
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:54 am

SR had to have them off in Saudia Arabia.
Christian displays forbidden.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:13 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 14):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 10):
maybe turning on strobes on the runway at night is blinding pilots in other aircraft sitting in line.

I have heard this reasoning before and it's just not valid, if you find the strobes to be blinding then don't look at them



It is far more important to be highly visible to all other traffic

Whoa, calm down! I just gave examples of how some airlines allowed Captains to have latitude with lighting and some don't.

I specifically said "Pilots configure lights per their manuals, and the manual sets normally give the Captain some leeway in certain visibility conditions...Some airlines allow this flexibility, some don't.

I neither endorsed nor condemned either example I provided.
 
cmb56
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:11 pm

Some airlines don't use them at all even if the aircraft is equipped with them.
 
474218
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:45 pm

Quoting eastern023 (Thread starter):
Is this a general safety practice to take off at night witht the tail fin lights on usually showing off the airline's logo?

The logo light is not a mandated safety light. It is a...logo...light!
 
26point2
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:25 pm

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 20):
Name one fatal accident which would have been prevented by strobes

We will never know. Perhaps a better question is to think of all the potential accidents avoided by strobes. This we will never know either but many I am sure.
 
nonfirm
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:29 am

We deactivated all of our logo light on are MD-80 fleet and installed caps.The problem with the Logo Lights on the MD-80 is them being mounted on the wign tips and pointing back.They blew out more often mounted on the wing.On our 737-400 fleet we did not buy them with Logo Lights installed again due to them being mounted on the wing tips.On our NG fleet the are all operating and used at the pilots discretion and from what I can tell mostly after landing (again preferance to the pilot.)
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...

Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:57 am

Quoting polot (Reply 3):
It's not weight savings that drive removing the bulbs (as I believe AA has done). It's the maintenance savings

True....Maintenance costs sometimes lead to the decision on not using the logo lights,The location of these Logo lights ie on the upper surface of the HS focusing on the VS is a cause for most of these snags esp during the rainy season as water seepage into these logo lights tend to fuse them...this is common on the B757s.
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