rjm777ual
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747-300 @ 747-400D

Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:56 pm

Hello all,
I was wondering this for a long time. Whats the difference between a 747-300 and a 747-400D? And why didn't airlines like ANA and JL keep their 743's instead of ordering 744D's?
Greetings from Dulles!
 
trintocan
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RE: 747-300 @ 747-400D

Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:28 pm

A 747-300 is effectively a 747-200 with a stretched upper deck. Some of the 747-300s were created by actually stretching the upper decks of pre-existing 747-200s (thus they are really 747-200 SUD)s and others were built from new. The 747-400 Domestics are part of the 747-400 family with extensive revisions within and without - perhaps most notably by having a 2-crew cockpit (the 747-300 needs 3 crew). It is this fact plus operational advantages of the newer planes which may have led to 747-400Ds being ordered. Additionally the 747-400D, while delivered without winglets and with a strengthened landing gear for short hops, could be adapted for long-haul use by adding the winglets subsequently.

The only reliable way of spotting the difference between the 747-300 and the 747-400D is to look at the leading edge wing fairing to the fuselage, which is smoothly curved in the 747-400 (all variants) but is angular in older Jumbos.

Trintocan.
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1stfl94
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RE: 747-300 @ 747-400D

Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:56 pm

Also the -400D could be converted to standard -400 spec if desired. I think ANA converted a few of their Domestic planes to standard -400s when they started getting 777s on the domestic routes. The -400D also came out after the -300 left production (I think it was around 1991) so the airlines didn't have much choice if they wanted a domestic 747.
[
quote=trintocan,reply=1]The only reliable way of spotting the difference between the 747-300 and the 747-400D is to look at the leading edge wing fairing to the fuselage, which is smoothly curved in the 747-400 (all variants) but is angular in older Jumbos[/quote]

The -400D also has extra windows on the upper deck at the back as there's a few more seat rows than the standard -400.
 
rjm777ual
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RE: 747-300 @ 747-400D

Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:34 am

Thanks all, it's just they look a LOT alike!
Greetings from Dulles!
 
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yyz717
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RE: 747-300 @ 747-400D

Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:57 am

Quoting trintocan (Reply 1):
The only reliable way of spotting the difference between the 747-300 and the 747-400D is to look at the leading edge wing fairing to the fuselage, which is smoothly curved in the 747-400 (all variants) but is angular in older Jumbos.

The engines are also different.,
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Spacepope
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RE: 747-300 @ 747-400D

Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:12 am

Quoting trintocan (Reply 1):
Some of the 747-300s were created by actually stretching the upper decks of pre-existing 747-200s

Is this actually true? I know -200s and even -100s were given the stretched upper deck treatment, however they still remained -100SUD and -200SUDs. Also the last of the -300s got the -400 style wing-body fairing, so that's not reliable either.
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CXB77L
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RE: 747-300 @ 747-400D

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:38 am

Quoting trintocan (Reply 1):
The only reliable way of spotting the difference between the 747-300 and the 747-400D is to look at the leading edge wing fairing to the fuselage, which is smoothly curved in the 747-400 (all variants) but is angular in older Jumbos.
Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 2):
The -400D also has extra windows on the upper deck at the back as there's a few more seat rows than the standard -400.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 4):
The engines are also different.,

  

Also, the 744D has no wingtip antenna:


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ha763
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RE: 747-300 @ 747-400D

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:49 am

Quoting rjm777ual (Thread starter):
And why didn't airlines like ANA and JL keep their 743's instead of ordering 744D's?

JAL did operate both aircraft together for nearly 20 years. They retired their last 747-300 at the end of July 2009 and less than 2 years later the 747-400D in February 2011. JAL was also the only one to operate both models. ANA never had any 747-300s.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: 747-300 @ 747-400D

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:38 am

Quoting trintocan (Reply 1):
The only reliable way of spotting the difference between the 747-300 and the 747-400D is to look at the leading edge wing fairing to the fuselage, which is smoothly curved in the 747-400 (all variants) but is angular in older Jumbos.

Didn't some -300s get the new fairing as a retrofit as well?

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 6):
Also, the 744D has no wingtip antenna:

Pretty sure the wingtip antenna isn't on all 741/2/3 either.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
KELPkid
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RE: 747-300 @ 747-400D

Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:47 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 4):

The engines are also different.,

The JT9D was dropped as an option in favor of the P&W 4000. Also, on Rolls-Royce equipped birds, the nacelle design went from being fairly conventional on pre-400 birds to the newer single outlet type   GEs look pretty similar between 747 generations (although, as I recall, all engine options on the -400 were FADEC engines only).
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
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CCA
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RE: 747-300 @ 747-400D

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:14 am

The HF antennas were moved to the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer before the -400 was built as was the change to the wing to body fairing. These may have been incorporated as a result of the -400 design whilst still on the drawing board. The -400 hydraulic architecture is slightly different to the majority of the "classics" as well and these changes were also incorporated to the last of the classics. The windows are all the same if you can't see a window it's simply a blank in its place.

Look at these two.......


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GearDownFlaps30
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RE: 747-300 @ 747-400D

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:14 am

Hello,

Air India's 747-337M such as seen here www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/0/9/2/0993290.jpg would look identical to any 747-400D because of :

- 747-400 wingroot fairing
- 747-400 General Electric CF6-80C2B1 engines and pylons
- No HF wingtip antennas

Therefore the only way, to me, to differentiate a 747-300 (such as Air India's airframes that had all the latest features) from a 747-400D are... the wheels :

- 747-300 wheels, 9 almost round holes www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/2/3/4/0193432.jpg and www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/1/1/4/1733411.jpg

- 747-400D wheels, 18 "oblong" holes, 777-style www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/6/9/3/0718396.jpg and www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/5/2/3/0362325.jpg

It is quite easily visible even when the aircraft is taxying.

Of course, the many other internal differences (3 man analog vs 2 man digital flight deck, cabin furniture, wiring, plumbing, etc) will obviously not be visible from outside.

Cheers, Steven

[Edited 2011-12-20 00:17:04]
Ciao, Steven
 
CXB77L
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RE: 747-300 @ 747-400D

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:49 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 8):
Pretty sure the wingtip antenna isn't on all 741/2/3 either.
Quoting CCA (Reply 10):
The HF antennas were moved to the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer before the -400 was built as was the change to the wing to body fairing.

I stand corrected.

Thank you. I learnt something new today   although it just made the visual differentiation between a 743 / 747 Classic SUD and a 744D that much more difficult.

[Edited 2011-12-20 00:53:07]
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Starlionblue
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RE: 747-300 @ 747-400D

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:27 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 12):
it just made the visual differentiation between a 743 / 747 Classic SUD and a 744D that much more difficult.

Yes and no. If you know a little about the specific operators it makes life way easier. In the example above, Air India doesn't have the 747-400D so that one is easy.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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747classic
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RE: 747-300 @ 747-400D

Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:33 am

As stated by "geardownflaps30" the only reliable external identifier between the 400D and the 300 series are the wheels, because the "new" carbonbrake/wheel assy combination is only certified on the 747-400 (and later) series.
All 747 classic series, up to the -300 are only certified with the older "steel "brakes.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 8):
Didn't some -300s get the new fairing as a retrofit as well?

No, AFAIK no -200/300 series were retrofitted, because of the high cost involved versus the relative small gain in SFC (0,5%) of the low drag body to wing fairing.
Boeing produced a masterchange proposal (5700MK4003) but nobody purchased it.

However several 747-200 and 300 (but not all) aircraft built after the first 747-400 (L/N 696) )were factory built with this new fairing. in fact it was part of the ongoing 747 Product Improvement Program (PIP) for all 747 versions, like the change of HF antenna's to the vertical stabilizer.
The first "classic" produced with the new fairing is L/N 704 a 747-366M for Egyptair.

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The following 747- SUD aircraft are especially produced for short range operations :

Classics (6x JAL) -L/N-serialnumber-type- basicnumber- variable (tabulation)number-airline

636 23390 747-146B(SUD)R0380 RS001 JAL
655 23637 747-146B(SUD)R0381 RS002 JAL
692 23967 747SR-346 R1258 RS265 JAL
693 23968 747SR-346 R1259 RS266 JAL
694 24018 747SR-346 R1260 RS267 JAL
695 24019 747SR-346 R1261 RS268 JAL

400 series (11x ANA, 9x JAL) :

844 25213 747-446D R2901 RU801 JAL
879 25214 747-446D R2902 RU802 JAL
891 25292 747-481D R2903 RU831 ANA
907 26347 747-446D R2904 RU803 JAL
914 25639 747-481D R2905 RU832 ANA
920 25640 747-481D R2906 RU833 ANA
927 25642 747-481D R2907 RU834 ANA
935 26345 747-446D R2908 RU804 JAL
941 26348 747-446D R2909 RU805 JAL
948 26349 747-446D R2910 RU806 JAL
952 25646 747-481D R2911 RU835 ANA
963 26351 747-446D R2912 RU807 JAL
972 25643 747-481D R2913 RU836 ANA
975 25644 747-481D R2914 RU837 ANA
978 26352 747-446D R2915 RU808 JAL
991 25647 747-481D R2916 RU838 ANA
996 27163 747-481D R2917 RU839 ANA
1031 27099 747-446D R2918 RU809 JAL
1060 27436 747-481D R2919 RU840 ANA
1066 27442 747-481D R2920 RU841 ANA

To complicate things further two 747-481 aircraft were modified to the 481D configuration (shortend wing + removal of the winglets), to produce a short haul aircraft in 2003 at the former Boeing Military Airplanes facility (Wichita).
However the fuselage was AFAIK not fully upgraded to the real 744D's specification.
Both aircraft are already sold and converted again by Bedek, now as a 747-481BDSF(again with winglets) before the cycle count became to high.
Aircraft involved :
1133 28282 747-481 R2716 RT756 ANA
1142 28283 747-481 R2724 RT757 ANA

Regards ,
Peter.

[Edited 2011-12-20 03:29:41]
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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747classic
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RE: 747-300 @ 747-400D

Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:51 pm

Here are some different external views of L/N 1142.

Original delivered ANA 747-481 --------------------------Interim 747-481(D) between 2003 and 2008

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----------------------------No winglets -------------- BDSF, with again added wingextension and winglets.

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Photo © Andrew Hunt - AirTeamImages
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----------------------------------------------------Present livery

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Photo © Tim Wagenknecht

Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.

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