timz
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Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:37 pm

The Wikipedia article on the Caravelle has a pic of an Air France Caravelle III rolling out at Bromma and trailing a braking parachute.

Which models had the parachute option? A Caravelle with a parachute would only use it on the shorter runways? After slowing they dropped it on the runway, or where?
 
citationjet
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:41 pm

There was a thread on this 4 years ago. The thread never addressed the Caravelle having a chute, it only talked about other aircraft that also used chutes. Interesting photo though.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/3263333/


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[Edited 2012-01-04 14:43:45]
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Viscount724
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:12 pm

Quoting timz (Thread starter):
Which models had the parachute option?

I think the braking parachute was standard on the Caravelle III and V!-N, not optional, since those early models lacked thrust reversers. The VI-R, like the 20 operated by UA, was the first Caravelle model with thrust reversers.


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As a sidenote, the Tupolev 104, the first commercial jet in service (other than the ill-fated Comet 1) also had a braking parachute (and also no thrust reversers).


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breiz
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:13 pm

The Caravelle III and VI-N, the early types, had the tail parachute. The Caravelle VI-R was then equipped with thrust reversers making the parachute un-necassary.
 
N243NW
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:48 am

What was the procedure for repacking the parachute after arrival and how long would it take? Also, did the aircraft drop the parachute on the runway, drag it to the gate, or was there some sort of retraction mechanism?
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flyingturtle
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:55 am

Quoting N243NW (Reply 4):

The jet blast probably kept the drag chute inflated, especially with tail-mounted engines. So, ground contact should not have happened.


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dxing
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:21 am

But what if there were a good crosswind blowing? That could make for some interesting taxiing issues.
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n234nw
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting N243NW (Reply 4):
What was the procedure for repacking the parachute after arrival and how long would it take?

I'm fairly certain these were replaced with a spare, packed chute for each flight - and then re-packed as time allowed. Another forum mentioned spare chute canisters would often be carried for use at destinations that did not have the means to repack the parachute.
 
ferpe
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:25 pm

Repackaging drag chutes is a bit of an art, you would like well trained people to do that, you don't want a chute that does not deploy when you decide you need to pull one  Wow! . Further, the frame would have plenty of cargo space to hold the roundtrips needed chutes.

Having flown military fighter which had drag chutes you would typically weer to the lee-side at the end of the runway and release the chute there for a follow me car or similar to pick it up, you don't take it with you on the taxiway as it can start collecting taxi lights   .
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ptrjong
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 8):

Well, I don't think the aircraft on the photo is on the runway.
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prebennorholm
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:46 am

Quoting n234nw (Reply 7):
I'm fairly certain these were replaced with a spare, packed chute for each flight...

Use of drag chutes on the Caravelle was a very rare exception. On short and wet or icy runway.

SAS had many Caravelle I, -IA and -III (all eventually modified to -III). I have watched tonnes of landings, but never seen a drag chute.

The Caravelle had a proportionally big wing, low wing loading, and huge trailing edge flaps which extended to 60 degrees - but tiny little spoilers. And twice as many main wheels as DC-9, B727, B737. So I would assume that under extreme conditions it could be a challenge to get some grip on the wheel brakes. And therefore the brake chute was used as a last resort on a difficult day.

The drag chute was very likely there as much for an aborted takeoff near V1 speed on a contaminated runway.

Also anti-skid wheel brakes were probably not present (I don't know), but in any case not as developed as they are today.

From my experience as passenger on SAS and Finnair Caravelles the wheel brakes were as good as on any modern plane today, but then I don't remember any landing on a contaminated runway.
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LAXintl
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:02 am

Funny I well remember witnessing a SAS Caravelle using its chute at FBU - virtually identical except little more snowy day to the photo in reply #1.
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tcasalert
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:48 pm

How much extra braking power did the drag chute on the Caravelle give the aircraft? I wouldn't have thought it would have given a massive amount of extra braking power, was it particularly noticeable?

My friend saw the chute used on an AF Caravelle at LHR once in the wet.
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ferpe
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting TCASAlert (Reply 12):
How much extra braking power did the drag chute on the Caravelle give the aircraft? I wouldn't have thought it would have given a massive amount of extra braking power, was it particularly noticeable?

A chute helps with the initial braking from touch down speed to say 2/3 of that speed, there is is pretty effective, you feel its effect pretty well at least in a 15t fighter when deployed. A 44t MTOW, 30t landing weight Caravelle should have a somewhat larger chute so it shouldn't be so bad.

Once there you have much less energy to tame (a V^2 thing) and your brakes are fresh so it helps.
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rwessel
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:31 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 13):
A chute helps with the initial braking from touch down speed to say 2/3 of that speed, there is is pretty effective, you feel its effect pretty well at least in a 15t fighter when deployed. A 44t MTOW, 30t landing weight Caravelle should have a somewhat larger chute so it shouldn't be so bad.

Once there you have much less energy to tame (a V^2 thing) and your brakes are fresh so it helps.


Brakes generate braking force at a basically constant rate, no matter the wheel speed (at least until they heat up). Parachutes, OTOH, generate drag in proportion to the square of the velocity. Assuming a 20ft diameter chute (seems approximately right given the Caravelle’s 29ft fin height and the picture above), sea level, a Cd in the neighborhood of .9 (reasonable for a chute), and a deployment speed of 125kts (probably a bit on the low side), you'd produce about 15,000lbs of drag initially. On a Caravelle, that would work out to about .2G at likely landing weights. At 40kts, you'd only get about a tenth that, so even that extreme a crosswind would not be generating a huge amount of side force.
 
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:19 am

Quoting N243NW (Reply 4):
What was the procedure for repacking the parachute after arrival and how long would it take? Also, did the aircraft drop the parachute on the runway, drag it to the gate, or was there some sort of retraction mechanism?

That was the flight engineers job, this aircraft had a 3 man cockpit. But i'm sure the ground engineers handled this if it was at a main base.

SAS also used the parachute sometimes when landing in DUB. Back in the 60's the runway was much shorter.
 
2H4
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 8):
Having flown military fighter which had drag chutes

Out of curiosity, what types did you fly?
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ferpe
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 16):
Out of curiosity, what types did you fly?

With chutes, delta winged fighters. They were a bit tricky to land (speed instability) but once you touched down the real work started. Getting them to stop before you you were out of runway was an art. As "good" pilots did not pull chutes       you only pulled them during conversion training and later when icy.
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Pihero
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 17):
you only pulled them during conversion training and later when icy.

... and you'd pull them as rarely as possible because you'd still want to be friends with the mechanics who 'd have to re-install the damn thingy in the intimate vicinity of the engine exhaust ( fumes, heted gases and hot metal would not endear you to the ground pogs ).  
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ferpe
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 18):
... and you'd pull them as rarely as possible because you'd still want to be friends with the mechanics who 'd have to re-install the damn thingy in the intimate vicinity of the engine exhaust ( fumes, heted gases and hot metal would not endear you to the ground pogs ).  

Absolutely    . BTW with "good" pilots not pulling chutes I am not inferring I was a good pilot, rather that this was a bit of a pride thing, you only pulled the chute if you felt you were in real trouble as the tower would not be happy (had to send the car out) the mechanics would not be happy (had to re-install the damned thing) and the buddies at the Wing would say "so had to pull a chute eh..., it was not that slippery when I landed    ..."
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airportugal310
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 19):
Absolutely    . BTW with "good" pilots not pulling chutes I am not inferring I was a good pilot, rather that this was a bit of a pride thing, you only pulled the chute if you felt you were in real trouble as the tower would not be happy (had to send the car out) the mechanics would not be happy (had to re-install the damned thing) and the buddies at the Wing would say "so had to pull a chute eh..., it was not that slippery when I landed    ..."

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photophil
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:05 pm

hmmm ... we can maybe have a look next saturday as we will be visiting a caravelle during the a.net meeting at ARN

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RetiredWeasel
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RE: Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?

Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:47 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 19):
you only pulled the chute if you felt you were in real trouble

Not so with USAF F-4s. We used them every landing with (in my case) one exception......If the runway was long, you knew there was nobody at the airfield that knew how to re-pack it, and you wanted to get back home after the reason for the divert passed. (usually weather)

Oops thought this was a more current thread...oh well.

[Edited 2014-12-23 14:49:25]

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