jayeshrulz
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Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:01 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG29cdb-fAc&feature=related

I was just seeing this video, and once the captain announced to brace, the cabin crew keep repeating it until the aircraft touched down. It believe its an emergency, but wont continuously saying the same words "Brace Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle" put more fear in the passengers than being cautious? What are the procedures in cases like these?
Is it airline specific or any regulation?

[Edited 2012-02-10 07:17:48]
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speedbird217
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:15 pm

This is really annoying, sounds like a CD that is stuck. Also it is interesting to see how many people don't seem to understand what "grab your ankle" means, neither does the guy that's filming understand anything, since he is filming the whole time and in the end even out of the window.

IIRC Sullenberger states in his book "Highest Duty" that he just told the cabin to "brace for impact" once and that it was a quiet working atmosphere in the cockpit with the engines out. I can only imagine that it must be really annoying to the pilots as well, when they are trying to concentrate and emergency land a plane and they hear this "brace brace"-stuff a hundred times from the back.
This is only speculation, I don't know if that's procedure, but I sure can't imagine it's supposed to be like in the video.
 
anstar
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting Speedbird217 (Reply 1):
IIRC Sullenberger states in his book "Highest Duty" that he just told the cabin to "brace for impact" once and that it was a quiet working atmosphere in the cockpit with the engines out. I can only imagine that it must be really annoying to the pilots as well, when they are trying to concentrate and emergency land a plane and they hear this "brace brace"-stuff a hundred times from the back.

The flight crew need to be in a calm environment to be able to get the aircraft to safety.

Whereas the cabin would need to be evacuated pretty quickly.... You need a sense of urgency to get people to evacuate rather than stand around and grab their belongings etc....

As for the commands.... I think they are similar in most airlines. Though continuously repeating them without any gaps of a few seconds is excessive.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:55 pm

Sounds like something schmoyoho would use to make a song...
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GT4EZY
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:11 pm

Crew at the airlines i've worked at are trained to keep shouting their 'brace' command until the aircraft comes to a stop. "Brace Brace", "Get your heads down, keep your heads down" etc etc are positive commands. As crew you need to make sure that passengers are in the brace position, that they are absolutely clear of what is being asked of them (the reason why commands are short & positive) and more importantly to give some indication of how long they need to be in that position.

Quoting jayeshrulz (Thread starter):
but wont continuously saying the same words "Brace Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle" put more fear in the passengers than being cautious?

Not at all. In an emergency passengers will understandably be atleast on edge if not scared but the commands are there for a reason......i.e to protect the passenger. Besides, I genuinely believe that most passengers would be reassured rather than made to feel more scared. In an emergency passengers will be looking for leadership and evidence that despite the situation, the crew are in control. Along with other commands they are there in effect to induce "positive panic". That basically means passengers are following commands and they are doing it quickly. Take away the commands and the perception that the crew are in control and this induces negative panic. i.e where someone over reacts and opens an overwing exit whilst still rolling down the runway or even a passenger trying to take control of the situation themselves for which they aren't trained for.

Quoting Speedbird217 (Reply 1):
IIRC Sullenberger states in his book "Highest Duty" that he just told the cabin to "brace for impact" once and that it was a quiet working atmosphere in the cockpit with the engines out. I can only imagine that it must be really annoying to the pilots as well, when they are trying to concentrate and emergency land a plane and they hear this "brace brace"-stuff a hundred times from the back.

Sullenberger didn't do anything differently than procedure AFIK other than to change the wording of his command. He said "brace for impact". If I remember correctly he added the word "impact" to reinforce the fact that the aircraft was going to come down to earth with one hell of a bang.
Pilots know what to expect from cabin crew in this kind of scenario and I doubt they would find it annoying. Lets be honest in such a situation they probably never consciously heard it.

Quoting Speedbird217 (Reply 1):
but I sure can't imagine it's supposed to be like in the video

No need to imagine it. I'm sure practically every airline does the same.

For what it's worth IMO the commands on the video lack urgency and the commands are too long but otherwise the crew continued with the command just as they were trained to do.

It also sounded like someone was on the PA aswell. At the carriers i've flown with you use your lungs and protect yourself!!!

[Edited 2012-02-10 09:15:14]
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gpbcroppers63
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 4):
Crew at the airlines i've worked at are trained to keep shouting their 'brace' command until the aircraft comes to a stop. "Brace Brace", "Get your heads down, keep your heads down" etc etc are positive commands

When I had an emergency landing on Ryanair, this was exactly what the crew did. The were shouting "Brace, Brace" "Heads Down, Heads Down" until we turned off the runway.

The commands in this video just sound like an annoying CD that's on repeat.
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UAL747
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:47 pm

I'd much rather the cabin crew keep talking than not say anything at all. As long as they keep talking, I know there is still aircraft in front of me.

BTW, there are plenty more videos on youtube of crews asking pax to "brace, brace, heads down, heads down!." This is standard procedure. I would think that if people didn't hear this all the way down, they might think the emergency is over. Not everyone is airline savvy, and we must respect that.

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GT4EZY
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:55 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
Not everyone is airline savvy, and we must respect that.

Absolutely. Occasionally I have to show passengers which side of the buckle to place the belt and constantly asked why we turn down/turn off lights for take off and landing and also why we asked them to lift their window blinds. Not everyone knows....in fact most people don't know. Like UAL747 said, not everyone are airline savvy. The ironic thing is that despite such an intense interest in the industry, it is evident that many a.netters don't know the nitty gritty of the role of cabin crew.
I don't mean that in a snooty way or imply that you should.
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blueflyer
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
I would think that if people didn't hear this all the way down, they might think the emergency is over.

That is exactly what I thought when I read the OP. If crew stops talking, someone is bound to raise their head and wonder what's going on right around the moment the aircraft hits a snow bank at the end of the runway and an unsecured carryon goes airborne, hitting them in the back of the head!
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mayor
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:59 pm

They forgot the "kiss your ass goodbye" part..................   
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UAL747
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 8):
an unsecured carryon goes airborne, hitting them in the back of the head!

LOL, out of all the things, "An Unsecured Crayon." - Love that.
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safetyDemo
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:12 pm

The policy at every airline I've worked at (I am now on my third...you know what they say - it is a charm!) has been that we repeat the commands until the aircraft has come to a complete stop and:

A) we receive further instruction from the flight deck crew to either stand-by or initiate an evacuation
B) life threatening conditions exist in the cabin at which point we initiate the evacuation on our own
Please direct your attention to the flight attendants in the cabin...
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:53 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 9):

Love it . . . . .  
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:58 pm

Quoting Speedbird217 (Reply 1):
that he just told the cabin to "brace for impact" once

The captain says it once and only once to let the FAs know to start their commands. We also keep saying our commands until the aircraft has come a complete stop, then a whole other set get said, depending on what needs to be done.

Sounds like the commands are from the, presumably, lead FA and spoken over the PA. We shout ours and, believe me, they can be heard through out the cabin.

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 4):
Pilots know what to expect from cabin crew in this kind of scenario and I doubt they would find it annoying.

Absolutely correct.
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Stratofish
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:20 pm

Some psychological studies conducted in the 90ies have found that repeating these orders has some positive effect and will lead to better cooperation and more orderly conduct thus a better and faster evacuation if need be.

While I find the studies hardly believable myself, almost all aviation governing bodies worldwide and almost all airlines have adopted this scheme the authors of said studies recommended.
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Jackbr
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:33 am

Depends on the airline

I believe at Qantas the procedure is to shout the commands until all passengers comply/the aircraft has landed - I don't believe they continue during the roll out
 
Stratofish
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:50 am

Here ya go. I am somehow unable to get the full text though. But if you bother enough to pay for it go ahead and tell us  http://www.opengrey.eu/item/display/10068/361319

She has written more on that subject, just go google "Helen Muir".
Apparently Professor Muir passed away in 2010.
http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/news/pressreleases/news/page47834.html
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JQflightie
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:40 am

At the airline i currently work for, we are to shout, when the Captain or FO come over the PA saying Brace, We start with 'Brace, Brace, Brace' 'Heads down, stay down' until ALL visable pax have complied or the first impact can be felt! It is dangerous to continue to shout commands after the initial contact with ground or water as there could be more then one impact and also we could bit our tounge or sustain a mouth/jaw injury, as when we stop and if an evacuation is needed we have more commands to shout to evacuate the aircraft, so if we have a mouth injury we cannot effectively evacuate an aircraft.
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skygirl1990
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:11 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 9):
They forgot the "kiss your ass goodbye" part..................

  


It just looks like it is a repeat of the other week where the 'prepare for ditching' recording was accidentally played mid-atlantic *shrug*
 
imiakhtar
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:14 am

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 14):
While I find the studies hardly believable myself, almost all aviation governing bodies worldwide and almost all airlines have adopted this scheme the authors of said studies recommended.
Quoting Stratofish (Reply 16):
Here ya go. I am somehow unable to get the full text though. But if you bother enough to pay for it go ahead and tell us

You may find this study to be of some interest:

Emergency evacuation of commercial aeroplanes - NTSB
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N747PE
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:43 am

Wait dont we do that everytime we give them a credit card? 
 
ash1111
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:34 am

At my airline, we need to shout "Heads down, stay down" once we hear the captain's PA: "This is the captain - brace, brace".

We need to do this until the aircraft comes to a complete stop, or it is unsafe for us to continue.
 
Btblue
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:43 am

With respect, they are doing their job... and they did it well - looking after the passengers, who I hasten to add walked away unharmed from this 'emergency' landing.
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HBJZA
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:19 pm

AFAIK and in both airlines I've been working for, Brace commands must be shout without using the PA and until the aircraft has come to a complete stop.
 
Markhkg
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RE: Brace Head Down Grab Your Ankle - How Many Times?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:51 pm

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 13):
Sounds like the commands are from the, presumably, lead FA and spoken over the PA

It is unusual about the video is that the crew is using the PA for repeated brace commands. Almost every other airline carrier has the crew shout their commands from their seats, which I actually agree with because the PA headseat should really be secured during an emergency landing.

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 4):
In an emergency passengers will be looking for leadership and evidence that despite the situation

I completely agree with this. After reading the survivor reports the NTSB conducted from US Airways Flight 1549 it is absolutely astounding to me that many, many people did not know how to adopt the brace position when the command was issued. I think one person actually reported leaning as far BACK as possible (which is, of course, completely wrong.). I don't understand why the FAA does not require the passenger safety briefing to bring attention to the brace position. It could be as simple as requiring them to say, "Your safety card illustrates the brace position which you must adopt during an emergency landing." Some airlines do say this, but it is not a required part of regulations to do so.

Keep in mind that many passengers that adopt the brace position during a planned emergency landing, if they're braced for more than 30 seconds, WILL GET OUT OF THE POSITION and look around, try to look out of the windows, etc if they are not told what to do. The need for repeated brace commands are thus necessary to encourage the passengers to remain in the (uncomfortable) position until the aircraft comes to a complete stop. Some airlines actually encourage the brace command to be issued 20 seconds before touch down to minimize passengers from getting uncomfortable and getting out of poision but that is sometimes not possible.

A great example is SAS Flight 751. During this dual engine failure landing, the cockpit door was open and the flight crew simply shouted to the cabin crew "Prepare for On Ground Emergency" and immediately the cabin crew took action. The purser issued the command to passengers, "Bend down, hold your knees". Everyone walked away from that devastating crash and the brace position is credited for minimizing injuries.

Quoting Speedbird217 (Reply 1):
I can only imagine that it must be really annoying to the pilots as well

I think that might be the case if the PA was continually used, but shouted commands surprisingly don't transfer well through the cockpit door (even more so, now that the doors are armored.) In fact, during US Airways Flight 1549 the CVR transcript doesn't note that the cabin crew were shouting their commands (even though we know that they were) so their impact on adversely affecting the crew communication in the cockpit was probably minimal.
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