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STT757
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Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:17 am

My Wife and I got back last week from FLL, flew B6 from EWR. Our flight back was on B6's ERJ-190, I really liked the aircraft but one thing caught me off guard. It was a clear night and weather should not have been a factor, however at our cruising altitude every now and then the aircraft would yaw quite dramatically. We were sitting in row 9, and the yaw was very dramatic. Almost every time the aircraft would yaw it would be followed by rolls to the left and right. The aircraft would be flying fine and all of a sudden seem very unstable, it would last a couple seconds and then end.

It was quite different from the run of the mill turbulence, where the plane feels like it drops suddenly. The experience I was getting on the ERJ-190 was a couple of dramatic yaws followed by a couple rolls. Then it would be fine, and then it would repeat every five to ten minutes. The only similar experience I've had to this prior would be during crosswind landings. Is this common to the ERJ-190 or was this some type of normal turbulence.
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N353SK
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:41 am

Yaw Damp inop maybe?
 
JBLUA320
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:46 am

The 190 is an interesting plane... Sitting in the back of it is NOT FUN when it's windy! My rule of thumb when I'm working on it is that whatever the front half is feeling, the back few rows is getting at least twice as bad. Because the wing of the airplane is so stiff, it tends to ride a little rougher on the bumps, and yes, it can have some interesting yaw effects. There have also been very very stiff crosswinds - in excess of 200 knots some times - and that is producing some...interesting... turbulence up and down the coast this winter.

-JBLU
 
N243NW
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:00 am

Quoting N353SK (Reply 1):
Yaw Damp inop maybe?

If I'm not mistaken, most modern jets are unable to dispatch without a functioning yaw damper, since it combats Dutch roll. I would consider this unlikely for your particular flight.

I've also heard murmurs from older forum posts where members have had pretty uncomfortable experiences in the back of a 190.
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Acey559
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:04 am

I wonder if it's an Embraer problem? I fly the -145 and on a perfectly calm day/night, the plane will constantly rock back and forth like it's incapable of flying straight and level. I've asked numerous captains why it always rocks and they say it's just what it does, nobody really knows why exactly. I wonder if the -190 has that sort of same problem? I've never flown on one though so it's just guessing.
 
goboeing
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:37 am

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 4):
I wonder if it's an Embraer problem?

You can stop wondering!  
Quoting Acey559 (Reply 4):
I fly the -145 and on a perfectly calm day/night, the plane will constantly rock back and forth like it's incapable of flying straight and level. I've asked numerous captains why it always rocks and they say it's just what it does, nobody really knows why exactly.

Because it's a stupid piece of garbage, that's why.

Seriously. After 1500 hours in the thing I left it for another plane wondering how they ever let it out of the test flying phase with so many major issues. i.e. starting the APU and the CDIs go whacko and the altitude select goes to some completely new random altitude.
 
kellmark
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:42 am

Quoting N243NW (Reply 3):
If I'm not mistaken, most modern jets are unable to dispatch without a functioning yaw damper, since it combats Dutch roll. I would consider this unlikely for your particular flight.

Most jet transports can dispatch with an inoperative yaw damper, but there may be altitude and speed restrictions, depending on the type.
 
WROORD
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:59 pm

I haven't been on E190, but flew a number of flights on E145 and E170/175 and they do feel weired with constant ups and downs to the point that your stomach moves like in a roller coaster ride.

I did not feel the same effect on CRJs or other types of aircraft. Embraer are my least favorite planes to fly on.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 5):
Because it's a stupid piece of garbage, that's why.

How do you really feel about the IRJ 190 though?
 
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Acey559
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 5):

haha It certainly has it's quirks. I'm not complaining because it's a job, but it definitely has a few interesting characteristics. The captain cranked the APU the other day and the whole plane went totally dark (with 50 passengers onboard) for the entire start sequence (also ended up having to swing start, of course). The thing I hate the most though is that stupid gust lock! Seriously, everything else is hydraulic, why do the elevators need to be mechanical?!
 
Av8tor
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:25 pm

Most likely wake turbulence. I have many thousands of hours flying the E190 and it certainly doesn't have any quirky rolling/yawing tendency at altitude, it would have to be either turbulence or wake turbulence.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:25 pm

I flew on the 190 a few times. I found the ride very comfortable. I never felt any yaw like you describe. Could it have been wind shift at altitude, or like others mentioned, inop yaw damper?
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3holer
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:32 pm

The ERJ-170/190 doesn't have any propensity to yawing and dutch rolling in cruise unless the Yaw Damper is failed. It's likely it was turbulence that caused a yawing moment. Also, being at row 9 which is basically halfway you are so close to the middle of the aircraft that any yawing should almost be imperceptible.

The 170/190 is a very stable airframe with very few bad habits at all.
 
contrails15
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:33 pm

I'll leave it at this... There is a reason why we nicknamed the E190 the 180.
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Av8tor
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:47 pm

Quoting contrails15 (Reply 13):
I'll leave it at this... There is a reason why we nicknamed the E190 the 180.

I have been flying the airplane since it was delivered to JetBlue and the "180" nickname is no longer deserved. The majority of the issues that caused gate returns and long delays have been fixed. The monthly reliability is on par with the Airbus.
 
SASMD82
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:59 pm

We have some 20 years old Fokker 100 flying at KLM cityhopper and ERJ190. I much rather prefer the Fokker 100s because of the stability. I found the ERJ190 very unstable and unbalanced. Of course it is a sophisticated aircraft but it is just a matter of opinion and I tend to agree with you.
 
voar
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:04 pm

Don't judge an airplane by one or two flights as a passenger.... I'll believe the pilots who fly the airplane everyday first and they few who have given their input seem to agree it flies just like every other jet around.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:21 am

Quoting voar (Reply 16):

Don't judge an airplane by one or two flights as a passenger.... I'll believe the pilots who fly the airplane everyday first and they few who have given their input seem to agree it flies just like every other jet around.

  
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
DashTrash
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:53 pm

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 4):
I wonder if it's an Embraer problem? I fly the -145 and on a perfectly calm day/night, the plane will constantly rock back and forth like it's incapable of flying straight and level. I've asked numerous captains why it always rocks and they say it's just what it does, nobody really knows why exactly. I wonder if the -190 has that sort of same problem? I've never flown on one though so it's just guessing.

That wing rock is courtesy of Honeywell. Honeywell just plain sucks... We have the same system in the X, which does it too on AHRS equipped aircraft. IRS equipped aircraft don't seem to do it.

Quoting voar (Reply 16):
Don't judge an airplane by one or two flights as a passenger.... I'll believe the pilots who fly the airplane everyday first and they few who have given their input seem to agree it flies just like every other jet around.

I completely agree with your statement. I've ridden jumpseat in the Junglebus and never felt any yawing. Riding in the last couple of rows is a different story however. It yaws pretty good in turbulence.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:03 pm

Plenty of time in the cabin of the 190 (and other E-jets), and I've never noticed anything out of the ordinary. The aircraft on which I notice the most instability around the yaw axis is the A319.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:40 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 19):
Plenty of time in the cabin of the 190 (and other E-jets), and I've never noticed anything out of the ordinary. The aircraft on which I notice the most instability around the yaw axis is the A319.

The only aircraft I have ever noticed dutch roll on was a 747, and I was seated in row 57 (about 80% of the way to the tail), and we were at MTOW for the takeoff (SFO-HKG with a full passenger load), it was on takeoff only. I was later told by a 747 captain that the yaw damper is a little slow to start doing its job on takeoff, and you really notice it when the plane is near gross and you're seated near the back 
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bond007
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:08 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 18):
I've ridden jumpseat in the Junglebus and never felt any yawing. Riding in the last couple of rows is a different story however. It yaws pretty good in turbulence.

Are the last couple of rows really that much further back from the CG (or yaw axis) than the cockpit is forward of it in an E-Jet ... or at least enough to notice a difference in the yaw?

and for the E145s I imagine with a CG further back, you'd notice yaw more up front.

Jimbo
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pilotpip
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RE: Flight Characteristics Of The ERJ-190

Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:07 am

Quoting bond007 (Reply 21):
Are the last couple of rows really that much further back from the CG (or yaw axis) than the cockpit is forward of it in an E-Jet ... or at least enough to notice a difference in the yaw?

Yes. For whatever reason, it is noticeable. At least in the 170/5.
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