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readytotaxi
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Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:56 pm

Does it happen worldwide?
If a crew think that another craft is getting better treatment/advantage at a location,do they make it known, or sit quiet and take note? Does it happen? Does every country offer an even playing field?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
arffdude
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:21 am

Sure pilots will complain to ATC about various things (and vice versa), but not usually with any positive benefits.

Unless you think an honest mistake has been made, like the tower has forgotten you're sitting there, it's probably best just to keep your mutterings to yourself.

I remember when I was doing ramp control in ATL, a coworker was really getting into it with some CRJ pilot, to the point where the pilot was saying he wanted directions to the ramp control tower because he was coming up there to have it out with my coworker once he blocked in.
 
26point2
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:10 am

"Advise ready to copy holding instructions" or the ever popular "This will be a delay vector". ATC holds the trump card.
 
DashTrash
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:09 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 2):
"Advise ready to copy holding instructions" or the ever popular "This will be a delay vector". ATC holds the trump card.

"minimum fuel"......
 
jgarrido
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:10 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
Quoting 26point2 (Reply 2):
"Advise ready to copy holding instructions" or the ever popular "This will be a delay vector". ATC holds the trump card.

"minimum fuel"......

Advise ready to copy holding instructions  Wink

[Edited 2012-03-15 00:10:38]
 
Mir
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:23 am

Quoting jgarrido (Reply 4):
Advise ready to copy holding instructions

And that's when it's time to drop the E-bomb.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 2):
ATC holds the trump card.

They really don't.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AF1624
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:33 am

Hum... what's the E-bomb ?
Cheers
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:22 am

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 6):
Hum... what's the E-bomb ?

Emergency.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
"minimum fuel"......

That could get you to the "little delay" point!  
Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
They really don't.

Exactly, it's the folks turning the knobs and pushing the buttons who hold the "trump card" as it has always been and always will be.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
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zeke
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):

It does happen, I find it mbarrasing at times when ATC delays everyone, and even include it on the ATIS. Iwas at an airport last year where they put all departures on ground hold, it was clearly stated on the ATIS, had some folks from a couple of North American carriers that thought they were being singled out, when in fact everyone else just called ready and were given their sequence number.

I think complaining at times can be caused by the crew not knowing some of the local procedures
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
26point2
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:55 pm

Of course. However, most commercial pilots dont make a habit of declaring "minimum fuel" or "emergency". Either of these tactics will give the pilot advantages but not to be used lightly. One must be careful.
 
bond007
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 10):
Of course. However, most commercial pilots dont make a habit of declaring "minimum fuel" or "emergency". Either of these tactics will give the pilot advantages but not to be used lightly. One must be careful.

Yes, and many of the anecdotes where this has been used are often far from the truth, although it happens of course.

In my company, if any pilot declared 'minimum fuel', or 'emergency', and it was found to deliberately false, they would be severely disciplined.

.. and yes, we are all human, but to have any extended 'argument' between ATC and pilots on an active frequency, is not only extremely unprofessional, but also potentially a safety issue. Best to leave it to the landline after the fact. But, yes, it happens!


Jimbo

[Edited 2012-03-15 09:41:20]
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
DashTrash
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 10):
Of course. However, most commercial pilots dont make a habit of declaring "minimum fuel" or "emergency". Either of these tactics will give the pilot advantages but not to be used lightly. One must be careful.

Bingo. I've called min fuel one time, and we really were. There had been a thunderstorm over the NYC area and most of the local airports were getting saturated. The storm had moved east so going to BDL or HVN wouldn't have worked, we couldn't get much further out of the area, and the min fuel call was the right way to go. Any more delaying vectors and we'd have been declaring an emergency.

For the original question, yeah, it happens. Works in the other direction too. Both sides are almost always professional enough to pull stupid actions like ATC putting you in a hold because they're pissed. Pilots don't usually slow down, or speed up to screw over a controller either.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:00 pm

I have heard it, and I have seen egregious favoritism from ATC towards certain operators at various airports; one in particular comes to mind. Having said that I have heard pilots complain and it never resolves anything. If I have an issue I will openly and politely ask for a phone number to call the ATC facility in question on when my flight is complete. I have done so on several occasions and have privately voiced my opinion out of public earshot. I have also brought up a problem with a long and recurring history to airline management who pressed the issue with our ATC liaison.

Never key the mic in anger.
 
sccutler
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:12 am

I have only been severely mistreated by ATC once, and it was not a case of purposeful abuse; it was just one thing leading to another, leading to... a 57-minute-long aerial tour of the Houston area. Couple of controllers were simply saturated, and some whining pilots trying to get in when there was no capacity for them did not help matters. A controller I called "the big dog" stepped in, got things going real well. Fixed it up right.

---

Every time I have heard a pilot truly complain (as opposed to giving notice of a mistaken instruction or the like), the conversation has worked its way around to that magic phrase, "Advise ready to copy a telephone number to call when on ground."

The system relies upon mutual respect and honesty - either breaks down, and things go poorly.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
aklrno
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:35 am

A few years ago I was on a United flight heading west out of DEN on a hot, humid afternoon with thunderstorms and turbulence everywhere. Our pilot announced he would try to stay low to avoid the turbulence every other flight was reporting.

As I listened in on Channel 9 the pilot resisted every instruction from ATC to climb higher. I don't think it was an outright refusal, but more a negotiation that resulted in the same thing. The controller's voice sounded more and more annoyed, and the pilot seemed to be getting more resolute that we weren't heading up to flight level 33 or 35 where we normally would have been. I think we maxed out around 23,000.

The final word from ATC (I think it was Denver departure) was a curt "radar service terminated."

We had a very nice flight with minimal turbulence and some nice views out the windows of the Rockies not very far below.
 
tower
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:40 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 15):
The final word from ATC (I think it was Denver departure) was a curt "radar service terminated."

ATC isn't going to terminate radar service on an IFR flight such as a commercial carrier. Radar contact may have been lost at a certain point, then they would switch to non-radar seperation. But radar service wouldn't be terminated. That would mean that your flight would have become VFR. And an airline is not going to go flying around squawking 1200.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting tower (Reply 16):
ATC isn't going to terminate radar service on an IFR flight such as a commercial carrier.

They might not do it to a Part 121 carrier but they'll certainly do it to a Part 91 carrier. I've been VFR, squawking 1200, in some very large jets.

Tom.
 
jgarrido
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:52 am

Quoting tower (Reply 16):
ATC isn't going to terminate radar service on an IFR flight such as a commercial carrier. Radar contact may have been lost at a certain point, then they would switch to non-radar seperation. But radar service wouldn't be terminated. That would mean that your flight would have become VFR. And an airline is not going to go flying around squawking 1200.

Not really true and several levels. If ATC isn't able to provide radar service they should tell the aircraft such. It doesn't matter if they are VFR or IFR, commercial or ga. Also radar service terminated does not equal VFR.
 
26point2
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:46 pm

"Radar service terminated" is heard when one leaves the radar service area. We hear it about 200 miles off shore and headed to Hawaii. Still IFR though.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting tower (Reply 16):
ATC isn't going to terminate radar service on an IFR flight such as a commercial carrier. Radar contact may have been lost at a certain point, then they would switch to non-radar seperation. But radar service wouldn't be terminated. That would mean that your flight would have become VFR. And an airline is not going to go flying around squawking 1200.

Don't confuse "RADAR service terminated" with "IFR cancellation", and that appears what you may be doing. RADAR service is terminated anytime you do not have the aircraft in RADAR contact such as behind a mountain or over an ocean where there simply is no RADAR coverage. It has absolutely nothing to do with cancelling an IFR flight plan.

Quoting jgarrido (Reply 18):
Not really true and several levels. If ATC isn't able to provide radar service they should tell the aircraft such. It doesn't matter if they are VFR or IFR, commercial or ga. Also radar service terminated does not equal VFR.

Well put Sir!!!   
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Woodreau
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:35 pm

Going west out of Denver, there are minimum altitudes that center has control over. I think FL210 is the minimum going westbound. Otherwise center has to coordinate with Aspen approach and then hand you off to Aspen approach - which doesn't have primary radar right now. So that's why center is interested in climbing you westbound out of Denver.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:02 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):
Never key the mic in anger.

Funny, I've had controllers do that to me on a few occassions.

Two that come to mind:

first time: my first landing (with an instructor) at a towered airport while getting my PPL. I was intently listening to my instructor, in controlled airspace. Apparently, we missed a couple of calls, and when I acknowledged them, I got a rude "finally" back from the controller, and promptly issued a "Say again?" Dead air was the response...  

Second time: with a fresh instrument ticket, I was going up with a friend as a safety pilot for a little IFR profeciency. I had filed a (relatively local) flight plan with the comment "Multiple Approaches en-route." Once I got airborne, the approach controller asked me "How can you do multiple approaches to airport XYZ?" (my filed destination, which only has one approach). I promptly replied back "I believe the comment was multipe approaches en-route ." The snippity controller became less so at that point...

By and large, though, I find ATC to be mostly helpful and appreciate the job the controllers do for us   
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
tower
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:17 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 20):
Don't confuse "RADAR service terminated" with "IFR cancellation", and that appears what you may be doing. RADAR service is terminated anytime you do not have the aircraft in RADAR contact such as behind a mountain or over an ocean where there simply is no RADAR coverage. It has absolutely nothing to do with cancelling an IFR flight plan.

This is exactly what I did. I'm an idiot. I admit my mistake. lol Thanks to everyone for the corrections of a brain fart.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting tower (Reply 23):
Thanks to everyone for the corrections of a brain fart



Probably the very first time anyone has ever had a brain fart........NOT!  

It is confusing to attempt to figure out what the heck ATC is doing anyway, no worries!!!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:42 am

ATC can be quite different in many parts of the world. In North America, talking back to ATC or querying them can definately get you thrown in the penalty box. In other parts of the world, the controller can get into a lot of trouble themselves for deliberately delaying you for no other reason than being childish.

In many parts of the world, especially Asia, there is clear favoritism towards the local carriers by ATC. I have even been told more than once point blank by ATC that the reason we are giving way or waiting is because they are their flag carrier and we are not. They don't even try to hide it. That said, there is no point in getting frustrated because it would not change things. Life is too short to get worked up too much about things like that and normally the delay is only a couple of minutes anyway.

The moaning I have done is if ATC have done something unprofessional and caused, or nearly caused an incident in which case they get feedback. Not moaning as such, but letting them know that something happened and a report will be coming.
 
tower
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:17 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 24):
It is confusing to attempt to figure out what the heck ATC is doing anyway, no worries!!!

I just started training in radar recently actually. I admit my dumb a**ery. Going to be brushing up on chapter 5 tonight now thanks to me realizing my mistakes.
 
bond007
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:53 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 15):
The final word from ATC (I think it was Denver departure) was a curt "radar service terminated."
Quoting tower (Reply 26):
I just started training in radar recently actually. I admit my dumb a**ery. Going to be brushing up on chapter 5 tonight now thanks to me realizing my mistakes.

Regardless, it's highly unlikely that the 'radar service terminated' call was because ATC was pi$%ed off with the pilot. Again, if it was, the controller was most probably a candidate for disciplinary action.

Another variation of this topic, is pilots arguing/complaining to other pilots directly on frequency (not via ATC). I've heard quite a few comments between pilots, and if they're smart they'll use the other pilot to key the mic and speak, so as to try and remain anonymous  

I'll admit to making the odd comment (not arguing) to irresponsible pilots at non-towered airports. Pilots making non-standard approaches/patterns, and incorrect radio calls at non-towered airports are a pet peeve of mine, and often a safety issue. My problem is that I have somewhat of a distinct accent, so it's usually obvious who it is ... not that I care!

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
runner13
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 22):
first time: my first landing (with an instructor) at a towered airport while getting my PPL. I was intently listening to my instructor, in controlled airspace. Apparently, we missed a couple of calls, and when I acknowledged them, I got a rude "finally" back from the controller, and promptly issued a "Say again?" Dead air was the response...

I understand it's your first landing, but if your going to be landing at a towererd airport in controlled airspace, you or your instructor should be listening intently to ATC. After a few calls we assume you've gone nordo. While I don't know what the controller was trying to tell you but it was probably important, a traffic call, or a control instruction. We don't talk just to talk. It is very frustrating when pilots don't respond after the first call, it gets even more frustrating when your busy, and need to repeat yourself 4 or 5 times because someone isn't listening.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting runner13 (Reply 28):
It is very frustrating when pilots don't respond after the first call, it gets even more frustrating when your busy, and need to repeat yourself 4 or 5 times because someone isn't listening.



It is very frustrating for the controller as well as other pilots however, after 4-5 calls just stick a radio failure tag on the data block and leave them alone, alert the other sectors to the failure to respond and go on about other business, they'll call someone when they want something!!!      

Amazing how that works.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 22):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):
Never key the mic in anger.

Funny, I've had controllers do that to me on a few occassions.

Did you like it? Point made.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 22):
first time: my first landing (with an instructor) at a towered airport while getting my PPL. I was intently listening to my instructor, in controlled airspace. Apparently, we missed a couple of calls, and when I acknowledged them, I got a rude "finally" back from the controller, and promptly issued a "Say again?"

Then you and your instructor shouldn't have been there. I can't fault the student (you) but if your IP wasn't up to the task of flying (and teaching) at a controlled field you need to come back another time, possibly with another instructor. I learned to fly at a controlled field in what is now Class B airspace, and radio discipline was (and has to be) part and parcel of flying at controlled fields from your very first operation there.

Quoting runner13 (Reply 28):
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 22):
first time: my first landing (with an instructor) at a towered airport while getting my PPL. I was intently listening to my instructor, in controlled airspace. Apparently, we missed a couple of calls, and when I acknowledged them, I got a rude "finally" back from the controller, and promptly issued a "Say again?" Dead air was the response...

I understand it's your first landing, but if your going to be landing at a towererd airport in controlled airspace, you or your instructor should be listening intently to ATC. After a few calls we assume you've gone nordo. While I don't know what the controller was trying to tell you but it was probably important, a traffic call, or a control instruction. We don't talk just to talk. It is very frustrating when pilots don't respond after the first call, it gets even more frustrating when your busy, and need to repeat yourself 4 or 5 times because someone isn't listening.

  
 
FlyHossD
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 25):
In many parts of the world, especially Asia, there is clear favoritism towards the local carriers by ATC. I have even been told more than once point blank by ATC that the reason we are giving way or waiting is because they are their flag carrier and we are not. They don't even try to hide it.

I had those same experiences "back in the day," too. It happened in Japan on occasion and nearly every time we went to Kimpo. At Seoul, it was common for Clearance Delivery to take over 20 minutes to give us our ATC clearance as they then checked with all Korean Air and Asiana Airlines flights for their requested altitudes over the same initial route. Consequently, we would be stuck at FL290 or 270 nearly every flight departing South Korea.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
LONGisland89
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:16 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):
I have heard it, and I have seen egregious favoritism from ATC towards certain operators at various airports; one in particular comes to mind.

Pray tell! What facility/ carrier?
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:36 am

I've found moaning to ATC just hurts what you're aiming to do. If you just make a request and they can facilitate it all parties are happy. They're not there to make your life a hassle. They're there to make sure your safe, and I'll take safety any day. Though it doesn't always mean we like each other! 
Blue
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PGNCS
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:52 am

Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 32):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):
I have heard it, and I have seen egregious favoritism from ATC towards certain operators at various airports; one in particular comes to mind.

Pray tell! What facility/ carrier?

Sorry, no. There is zero reason to get into details here. See my original posting:

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):
If I have an issue I will openly and politely ask for a phone number to call the ATC facility in question on when my flight is complete. I have done so on several occasions and have privately voiced my opinion out of public earshot.
 
jrfspa320
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:25 am

 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Topic Author
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:22 pm

Just found this clip from a moment at JFK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F8I0IQq-6o&feature=related

Around 1:10 the pilot requests that the controller be polite with him, and it continues a little further on.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
speedbird128
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:20 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
And that's when it's time to drop the E-bomb.

And be ready to back that up after an INCREP has been filed. If they dipstick you and one has been fudging the low-fuel situation, it might get messy.

On the general topic...

I will put it this way. I do what is the most efficient at the time. I may misjudge something once in a blue moon, but that is life as a human being. I want you out of my airspace as fast as I can. Having more planes on frequency isn't my idea of fun, so screwing people about for the fun of it has never been part of my daily life. If a direct or shortcut is possible, you'll get it. But understand that if theres other traffic, (ie, I hate to point it out that you are not the only pilot in the sky! Yes, really! I am serious.)

I have on several times been given bad attitude by sloppy pilots, from a variety of carriers. It was a busy arrival pattern, and having guys not check in for their descent made them high and fast. A hold was normally issued at the STAR point to get them down and slow them down. If one calls in at the published mandatory reporting point, none of this would happen. And I don't mean a 10 mile late call - these guys were flying nearly 200nm with no ATC check in (our neighbouring country were rather useless on the ATC front).

I have also observed ATCs being rude to GA pilots as they feel GA is fair game for the rockets. I have reprimanded them on that front. Its embarassing and doesnt foster a mutually good work environment when one is afraid.
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blueflyer
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:53 am

I've heard many British pilots swear every single flight in the entire Iberia network gets their clearance before they do whenever they try and fly out of Spain...

Not a pilot, not a controller, the only part of this statement I can personally vouch for is they swear a lot...
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
Mir
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:21 am

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 37):
And be ready to back that up after an INCREP has been filed. If they dipstick you and one has been fudging the low-fuel situation, it might get messy.

I wouldn't be declaring minimum fuel if I weren't at minimum fuel, so no worries on that account. And if I do declare minimum fuel, I'm serious about it - any more holding instructions after that will result in me declaring an emergency, paperwork be damned.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
speedbird128
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:06 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
I wouldn't be declaring minimum fuel if I weren't at minimum fuel, so no worries on that account.

Thats good to know  
I have experienced the opposite before.
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cyeg66
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:54 pm

Pointless to "have a go" at ATC. Touchy situation declaring min fuel, etc, for reasons already discussed above. Glad you guys realize that that could be a costly mistake, especially if in doing so, it affects other flights that otherwise wouldn't have had fuel issues.

In your defense, though, having a controller that sounds like he/she's smooth and in 'control' must certainly make you feel a little more secure when things are getting busy and dicey. Some controllers are horribly (how do I put this nicely?) knee jerk in the way they control when they're swamped. For me, there's nothing more admirable than watching (or being ) a controller that when the going gets tough, they actually settle into a groove and are nothing but cool and calm, despite the radar displaying nothing short of a sh%t storm. Most controllers can produce a similar "end result" on the localizer but it's how well you got those planes into that position that is most telling.
slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
 
mmedford
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:43 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 36):
Around 1:10 the pilot requests that the controller be polite with him, and it continues a little further on.

And why does the controller have to ask 3 times for a simple taxiway?
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cyeg66
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting mmedford (Reply 42):

And why does the controller have to ask 3 times for a simple taxiway?

Are you under the impression the pilot was yanking his chain? Just maybe he didn't understand what was being asked of him. Just maybe... New York controllers don't typically represent the pointy end of the sword in terms of international speak. In an instance like this, the controller could maybe up his game and slow things down a little and mutter less. No, that may require a little common sense. It's not like he had 2 planes nose-to-nose at the same altitude a mile apart.
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readytotaxi
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 43):
New York controllers don't typically represent the pointy end of the sword in terms of international speak.

Wow. That's a different turn of phrase.  
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mmedford
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 43):
Are you under the impression the pilot was yanking his chain? Just maybe he didn't understand what was being asked of him. Just maybe... New York controllers don't typically represent the pointy end of the sword in terms of international speak. In an instance like this, the controller could maybe up his game and slow things down a little and mutter less. No, that may require a little common sense. It's not like he had 2 planes nose-to-nose at the same altitude a mile apart.

JFK goes through controller trainees, like charlie sheen and hookers. Trainees fail out on ground control; left and right. Sure their attitudes aren't PC... but like it or not, the NY Area has some of the best controllers in the world.

You can't get that kind of talent without having the egos and complexes playing a part.
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cyeg66
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:06 am

No doubt they're some of the best, but must they be devoid of any capacity to empathize with pilots that may not be 100% familiar with the airport layout nor with the local language, particularly with regards to the thick "New Yolk" accent and slang? Brain surgeons would probably not have a long career if they berated every nurse or assistant that missed his/her every instruction. JFK ground does appear to be a nightmare, I'll grant you that.
slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
 
cyeg66
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:07 am

Quoting mmedford (Reply 45):

JFK goes through controller trainees, like charlie sheen and hookers.

   That many?!? Holy mackerel....
slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
 
speedbird128
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting mmedford (Reply 45):
the NY Area has some of the best controllers in the world.

Every big busy airport have some of the best controllers in the world...
As do big busy en-route centres... etc etc

[Edited 2012-03-31 12:46:40]
A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
 
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RE: Pilots Moaning To ATC?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:08 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 36):
Just found this clip from a moment at JFK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F8I0IQq-6o&feature=related

Around 1:10 the pilot requests that the controller be polite with him, and it continues a little further on.

Pretty much sums up why JFK is my most-loathed airport in the US. Clearly the pilot is not a native English speaker, and the question was not asked clearly, and was asked very quickly.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 42):
Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 36):
Around 1:10 the pilot requests that the controller be polite with him, and it continues a little further on.

And why does the controller have to ask 3 times for a simple taxiway?

Because he doesn't ask clearly, he is nonstandard, and the pilot is not a native English speaker. If he would slow down, ask clearly, and use standard terminology the pilot could understand quickly, he wouldn't have to ask so many times.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 45):
Sure their attitudes aren't PC... but like it or not, the NY Area has some of the best controllers in the world.

Well saying "their attitudes aren't PC" is a total cop out. This guy in particular and many of his colleagues at JFK are rude, use nonstandard phrasing, speak more quickly than normal (even when not needed) and are just plain nasty.

Any big airport has "some of the best controllers in the world." So what? It's not an excuse to be rude or unprofessional, which is why after bidding days off, avoiding JFK is my top bidding instruction every single month. It's a pit made infinitely worse by the controllers.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 45):
You can't get that kind of talent without having the egos and complexes playing a part.

Yes you can.

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 46):
No doubt they're some of the best, but must they be devoid of any capacity to empathize with pilots that may not be 100% familiar with the airport layout nor with the local language, particularly with regards to the thick "New Yolk" accent and slang? Brain surgeons would probably not have a long career if they berated every nurse or assistant that missed his/her every instruction. JFK ground does appear to be a nightmare, I'll grant you that.

No question: JFK is a pilot and controller's nightmare, but it's no excuse for the routinely bad attitudes on display from the controllers there, especially when dealing with foreign carriers whose pilot's first language is not English.

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 48):
Quoting mmedford (Reply 45):
the NY Area has some of the best controllers in the world.

Every big busy airport have some of the best controllers in the world...
As do big busy en-route centres... etc etc

  

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