simjim
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Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:11 am

Can an airline carry fare paying passengers and charge for cargo on ferry flights? (delivery, maintenance, repositioning)



What are the rules for this in the US, EU, Asia, Latin America and Middle East?
 
JRadier
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:14 am

Based on EU regulations (and I expect it to be similar for others) a ferry flight can not carry commercial traffic. Of course you could make a ferry flight and carry passengers, but this would officially be a commercial flight.
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simjim
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 1):
Of course you could make a ferry flight and carry passengers, but this would officially be a commercial flight.

Do any airlines do this? Let's say an airline is returning an aircraft to a lessor, can they sell cheap one way tickets to cover some costs of the flight?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:47 am

Quoting simjim (Thread starter):
Can an airline carry fare paying passengers and charge for cargo on ferry flights? (delivery, maintenance, repositioning)

No, but that's not a regulatory thing, it's a definition thing. If you're carrying fare paying passengers or revenue cargo, by definition, it's not a ferry flight. If you need to move an aircraft from A to B for some reason that isn't related to just running revenue service there's no reason you can't run it as a charter and take paying passengers and cargo...but then it's not a ferry flight.

Quoting simjim (Reply 2):
Let's say an airline is returning an aircraft to a lessor, can they sell cheap one way tickets to cover some costs of the flight?

Sure, if the incremental one-time cost of finding those paying passengers, getting the flight into your system, setting up the pax handling at each end, etc. brings in enough revenue to make it worth it.

Tom.
 
JRadier
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:11 am

Quoting simjim (Reply 2):
Do any airlines do this? Let's say an airline is returning an aircraft to a lessor, can they sell cheap one way tickets to cover some costs of the flight?

Monarch recently did an enthusiast flight from LGW (?) to MAN and back flying on aircraft that were destined for maintenance. On return to lessor flights I would say it is far less common, because the aircraft has to be redelivered in a certain condition and this is often without airline specific items (safety cards, catering etc) and it would be costprohibitive to ship this back. I have worked on setting up a delivery flight from Boeing to carry passengers and you would be amazed of the logistics involved. In this case it was worth it, but doing one-off charters where the aircraft only goes one way are a shitload of work.
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Fabo
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:38 am

Would it be feasible to offer tickets on flights that are non-scheduled, but within airline network? Say, for example, OK is selling its 737s to Armenian lately. They do operate regular schedule to Yerevan. Could they sell tickets for one-way to YVN? For simplicity sake, lets assume Armenia is in the EU Open Skies.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:40 am

If its a ferry flight.....It requires regulatory clearence as its a situation needing required permission.
The purpose could be Maintenance related or positioning due to approaching abnormal weather.
If its a ferry flight then only crew concerned with the operation of the flight would be involved.
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Gemuser
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:50 am

Quoting simjim (Thread starter):
Can an airline carry fare paying passengers and charge for cargo on ferry flights?

I was a fare paying passenger on an AnsettMAL DC-3 being ferried from MAG (Madang) to MAS (Momote) PNG. The aircraft was being ferried to MAS to commence a new timetabled service that left there on Monday morning, but the old timetable did not have a service into MAS on the Sunday. This type of flight is also called a repositioning flight.

However tdscanuck in Reply3 makes a good point about definitions.

Basically a ferry flight, however you define it, can only carry passengers IF it will be complying with ALL relevant regulations. Ferry flights often do not do so. For example the approval for the fitment of ferry fuel tanks will usually prohibit the carriage of any personal not essential to the operation of the flight.

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MHG
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:29 am

Well, actually we are looking forward to such ferry/positioning flights when Berlin Tegel airport will close on june2 and BER will open on june 3.
Some airlines are offering flights from TXL to BER on the evening of june 2 ...
But technically these are charter flights.

An actual regular example of positionning flights offered for sale to the public is estonian carrier AVIES that operates scheduled domestic flights in Sweden monday through friday and sunday afternoon (Stockholm-Hagfors-Torsby / Stockholm-Mora Sveg / Lulea-Pajala) but keeps its home base in Tallinn/Estonia.
They offer flights from Sveg to Tallinn on friday night and back on sunday morning.
Same with Pajala-Tallinn v v.

Ferry flights for delivery/maintenance may be offered occasionally but not very often because organising such flights to carry passengers involves mostly at least one airport not normally used for regular pax traffic and that dramatically increases the effort ($$$) it takes to make it possible and less likely to be viable.

[Edited 2012-03-25 04:35:52]
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bond007
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 3):
No, but that's not a regulatory thing, it's a definition thing.

Well, its's a regulatory thing only as far as the fact that a ferry or repositioning flight, in the US at least, might not be flown under Part 121 (or 135) regulations.

Jimbo
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citationjet
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 9):
Well, its's a regulatory thing only as far as the fact that a ferry or repositioning flight, in the US at least, might not be flown under Part 121 (or 135) regulations.

I agree, its an operational regulation distinction. It is not important as what the flight is called (ferry, repositioning, non-revenue vs revenue) as it what operating rule you are operating the flight.
In the US, if you are carrying revenue passengers, then the flight is being operated Part 121 (or 135), regardless of whether or not you "call" it a ferry flight, repositioning flight, deadhead flight, etc.
If you are not carrying revenue passengers (or freight, I assume) you can operate Part 91. Part 91 flights (including ferry flights) can carry non-revenue passngers (ie airline employees). I have been non-rev on ferry flights on 747s when the aircraft is being flown to another airport for routine maintenance.
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N243NW
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:04 am

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 10):
I have been non-rev on ferry flights on 747s when the aircraft is being flown to another airport for routine maintenance.

Back in the day, my airline would finish scheduled maintenance on the airplanes in the hangar, taxi over to the terminal, and load up all the employees before taking off on a ferry flight - this was affectionately known as the "non-rev special." It sure helped clear out the standby lists and resulted in a lot of happy employees.
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KELPkid
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:57 am

If the flight is being operated under a ferry permit (I.e. less equipment than the MEL, special authorization from FAA and the manufacturer), then only essential crew can be on board. Although, this is the vast minority of ferry flights  
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HAWK21M
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:30 am

Quoting N243NW (Reply 11):
Back in the day, my airline would finish scheduled maintenance on the airplanes in the hangar, taxi over to the terminal, and load up all the employees before taking off on a ferry flight - this was affectionately known as the "non-rev special." It sure helped clear out the standby lists and resulted in a lot of happy employee

Used to occur out here with a few Airlines in the early 90s.....When the team for Check C was ferried to the Hangar & back post Maintenance,as the Hangar was located at another base.
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737tdi
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:45 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 12):
If the flight is being operated under a ferry permit (I.e. less equipment than the MEL, special authorization from FAA and the manufacturer), then only essential crew can be on board. Although, this is the vast minority of ferry flights




If this is true, I don't know how we get around it. I have flown many ferry flights, whether they be reposition (I would be onboard to fix the aircraft causing the reposition), maintenance ferry (I have been on these to do an elevator/aileron test flight on the way to a vendor for further repair) out of "C" check. Must have something to do with being a mech.???
 
bond007
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 14):
I have flown many ferry flights

But were they flown under a Special Flight Permit (Ferry Permit)?

Generally these pemits are only issued when the aircraft does not meet airworthy requirements to fly under any other regulation (Parts 121, 135, 91).

A repositioning flight would not fall under this, but your "maintenance ferry" possibly could require a ferry permit - but, if as you say, you were there to perform a test, then you would probably count as 'essential crew'.

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emirates202
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:25 am

Well, back in 2008, when EK took delivery of their first A380, there were passengers and media on the delivery flight from hamburgh to Dubai. I'm pretty sure that they auctioned th seats. That's th only one that I know of, and I think it is possible for passengers to fly on ferry flights, if the airline has permission.
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bond007
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:46 am

Quoting emirates202 (Reply 16):
and I think it is possible for passengers to fly on ferry flights, if the airline has permission.

Just to be clear, we can call them ferry flights, but as mentioned earlier, it simply depends on what regulations the flight is being operated under.

Just because you are repositioning an aircraft, or flying a new one from the production facility, it can be, and frequently is, operated no differently than a commercial revenue flight, and is flown under those regulations (Part 121 in the USA). We can call it whatever we want, but ...

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 3):
If you're carrying fare paying passengers or revenue cargo, by definition, it's not a ferry flight. If you need to move an aircraft from A to B for some reason that isn't related to just running revenue service there's no reason you can't run it as a charter and take paying passengers and cargo...but then it's not a ferry flight.

Bottom line ... whether passengers can be carried, has nothing to do what we call it, whether it's a repositioning flight, a delivery flight etc. ... it's what regulations it's being operated under.


Jimbo

[Edited 2012-03-26 18:50:41]
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jetblueguy22
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:29 am

What about some of the 787 display flights lately? I've seen media onboard the experimental aircraft on several flights. Since they are not an air carrier what would they be considered?
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tdscanuck
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:34 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 18):
What about some of the 787 display flights lately? I've seen media onboard the experimental aircraft on several flights. Since they are not an air carrier what would they be considered?

They're a Part 91 carrier, from a regulatory standpoint, so it's considered a charter flight for the operations side of things.

Having an experimental airworthiness certificate, by itself, doesn't tell you much. There are several types: Research & Development, Show Compliance (i.e. certification), Market Survey, Flight Crew Training, Exhibition, etc.

Tom.
 
bond007
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:17 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 19):
it's considered a charter flight for the operations side of things.

Well, a non-revenue charter of sorts  

Jimbo
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blueflyer
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:01 am

The only such situation that I see fairly regularly is a delivery flight of a freighter aircraft turned into a revenue flight. It is much easier to do it on the cargo side since cargo rarely wants to go back to where it came from, as opposed to these pesky passengers.

For example, one of Cargolux's 747-8F "delivery flight" was BFI-SEA. Customer freight was loaded in SEA and the plane took off for LUX on what had become a revenue flight.
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RE: Can Passengers Be Carried On Ferry Flights?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:08 pm

It also depends on the SOPs of the airline. At my airline, passengers can not be carried on a "ferry" flight. As insurance is charged "per flight" the aircraft will not be insured for the carriage of passengers revenue or not. Under some circumstances, we can carry company employees, usually AMEs on a "rescue" mission.
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