User avatar
flyingturtle
Topic Author
Posts: 4925
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

CRM: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:04 pm

Hello fellow a.nutters,


since reading all the AF447 debates, I wanted to open a new thread to collect and discuss examples of CRM in aviation incidents and accidents.

A rather philosophical question: Is there any difference between good and exemplary CRM?

Well, let's start...

Good:
- UA 232 in Sioux City. Tasks were shared with a DC-10 flight instructor who fortunately traveled on the same aircraft.
- QF 32 in Singapore. It was mainly the check airmen who discussed the ECAM messages and decided which ones to disregard, and thus relieving the others.

Bad:
- the Tenerife disaster. I don't count this as "ugly" because CRM didn't exist in the form it does today.

Ugly:
- AF447. None of both PF and PNF were assigned duties in case something would turn out bad. And as I understood, the CPT was reluctant in offering and discussing his perception of the situation. Nobody took care of reading the checklist, and much worse, nobody clearly told the other what he was thinking.


Kind regards,

David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
Northwest727
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:38 am

RE: CRM: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:55 pm

The list of bad and ugly can go on, as can the successful CRM outcomes (crew working together to land an airplane with a failed component successfully seldom makes news, unlike one where a crash happens).

Failed CRM examples include CO3407, EA401, UA173, etc.

[Edited 2012-03-27 07:11:07]
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: CRM: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting Northwest727 (Reply 1):
Failed CRM examples include CO3407

I'm not sure I completely agree, but admit it's hard to argue. Does that make sense? 3407 was a catastrophic loss of situation awareness. There were many factors that led to it, but I'm not sure poor CRM was much more than a small contributor.
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5549
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: CRM: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:09 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Thread starter):
- QF 32 in Singapore. It was mainly the check airmen who discussed the ECAM messages and decided which ones to disregard, and thus relieving the others.

It was fortunate there were additional resources on board, took some load off the duty crew and provided additional input.
Would the outcome have been different without them? Who knows, probably not but the stress level of the crew might have been higher.
UA232, I believe the Senior officer that came forward assisted with controls, could the more junior officer that returned to the cabin(AFAIK, sadly did not survive)have performed that function... maybe, maybe not, guess we will never know.

Teneriefe, Pretty good example of bad CRM, CRM has existed as long crews have comprised more than one person. Perhaps there was no name for it, perhaps it was not studied or managed as carefully as it is today.

The HMS Bounty, the USS Caine(fictional) are examples of bad CRM
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2050
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: CRM: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:31 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 3):
CRM has existed as long crews have comprised more than one person. Perhaps there was no name for it, perhaps it was not studied or managed as carefully as it is today.

I disagree because it wasn't taught as a required, functioning part of every flight. Of course there has always been certain individuals that are good at communication but certainly a small percentage. I had an old Delta pilot (now passed on) tell me that when he was a new F/O in the early 50s, the capt. would say "don't touch anything, don't say anything and if I want you I'll speak to you." Certainly not the best way to run a flight deck. CRM has certainly been an important improvement as to how we fly and manage complex modern jets.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29978
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: CRM: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:10 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 3):
Teneriefe, Pretty good example of bad CRM, CRM has existed as long crews have comprised more than one person. Perhaps there was no name for it, perhaps it was not studied or managed as carefully as it is today

Pressure & too vast seniority difference between the crew.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5767
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: CRM: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:19 pm

Good - I was on a C-121J back in early 1973 from NAS Atsugi to NAS Guam. We took a lightning strike about three hours out and short circuited a panel.

We lost all the limited navigation instrumentation we had on the plane.

It was a clear day, we had good vision of the islands from 20K.

The squadron XO was on the plane - and he 'managed' the situation as a training exercise. How to use available squadron personnel on the plane to minimize the workload on the cockpit flight crew, to supplement the troubleshooting of the flight engineer and the navigator, as we completed the flight to Guam.

At a safety standown a couple months later, Capt Prosser (the XO) went over the event as an example of how flight crews are supposed to work together, how they are supposed to make use of all available resources.

Bad - In September we lost an A-3 Skywarrior on a flight from Guam to NAS Cubi Point. The crew of five was able to bail out over the only destroyer in the JMSDF with an embarked helicopter and recovered safely.

On that flight, which was to transfer a 'good backend (ELINT)' aircraft to Cubi to exchange for a 'bad backend' aircraft - was being used as a navigational training exercise with three navigators aboard - two transitioning from the C-121s.

About 1/2 way to the Philippines, the pilot did a slow circle to see if the 'student' nav would catch the action. The pilot noticed about 1/2 way through the 360 that the electronic compass was not tracking the turn. He stopped the turn when he thought he reached the original course (They left Guam at 10:30 local time and were due in Cubi at 12:30 local time - so the sun was almost directly overhead.)

The pilot refused to trust the wet compass because it did not agree with his perception of the course of the aircraft. The plane captain and one of the navigators were convinced the wet compass was working, demonstrating that a magnetic tool would cause the compass to deviate.

There were a lot of other issues related to navigation, including new HF-DF software installed that morning when made the USAF unable to locate the aircraft.

Long story, but they ended up bailing out almost 900 miles off course after flying north northwest for hours while the pilot was convinced they were heading west southwest, and would not listen to his crew.
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2824
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: CRM: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:04 am

The S5 overrun in CLE is a great example of horrible CRM. There was almost a complete role reversal between the captain and the FO, including the FO completely ignoring the captain's request for a go around. That alone should not have been a request. It should have been a command and after saying it twice the captain should have taken control.
DMI

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos