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HAWK21M
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A320F When........

Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:46 am

When is the A320 series Freighter supposed to be built....Last heard plans was for 2012.....any update?.
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9MMPQ
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RE: A320F When........

Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:49 pm

Airbus dropped the plans last year citing strong demands for the passenger versions. Used frames are most likely to be picked up again leaving little frames to convert to freighters.

Your question did get me wondering though, would there even be significant demand for it ? Suppose it doesn't really matter as Airbus is making money on the passenger versions.
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Stitch
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RE: A320F When........

Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:47 pm

I do not believe there are any plans for a factory-built freighter or convertible (like the 737-700C).

As for the A320 Passenger to Freighter conversion STC, that was formally cancelled in June of 2011 and the partnership with Russia's United Aircraft and Irkut ("Airbus Freighter Conversion") has been dissolved. AerCap, who launched the program in 2008, is working to place the planes they had planned for conversion with new operators or they will scrap them for parts.

The stated reason is strong continued demand for Airbus A320-200s has kept residual values high and therefore any converted freighter would be too expensive to be economically viable to operate against converted 737 Classics or 757s. A 1990 delivery A320-200 is worth $6.5-10 million plus the cost of conversion whereas a 1992-era 737-300SF can be had for $5-9 million and it's already a freighter. Now yes, the 737-400 is a closer match to the A320-200 in size, but you can get a 737-400HGW with EFIS for half of what an A320-200 of the same vintage is going for.
 
KELPkid
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RE: A320F When........

Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:30 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
The stated reason is strong continued demand for Airbus A320-200s has kept residual values high and therefore any converted freighter would be too expensive to be economically viable to operate against converted 737 Classics or 757s.

Bull. Now that Airbus has pressed forward with the 320NEO, I predict that older 320's will become parked by the droves in years to come  
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Stitch
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RE: A320F When........

Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 3):
Bull. Now that Airbus has pressed forward with the 320NEO, I predict that older 320's will become parked by the droves in years to come.    

Airbus believes that A320neo deliveries will not materially impact A320 Classic values much before the early 2020s. They site the fact that 737 Classic values were not materially impacted by the introduction of the 737NG until 737NG deliveries had equaled 50% of 737 Classic deliveries.
 
KELPkid
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RE: A320F When........

Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Airbus believes that A320neo deliveries will not materially impact A320 Classic values much before the early 2020s. They site the fact that 737 Classic values were not materially impacted by the introduction of the 737NG until 737NG deliveries had equaled 50% of 737 Classic deliveries.

However-there are a few key points here:
1) The NG's weren't that much more fuel effecient than the classics, but they did offer much improved range
2) the NEO is a quantum leap in engine effeciency compared to the current A320 series, and as I understand it, range goes up in the 320NEO as a natural consequence of the reenginning.

Also, the leasing companies are whining at both Boeing and Airbus over the current narrow body production rates, because lease rates are way down due to a glut of new production aircraft.
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AirframeAS
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RE: A320F When........

Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:55 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
I do not believe there are any plans for a factory-built freighter or convertible (like the 737-700C).

Doing the convertible versions, the FAA had decided at some point long ago,. not to certify anymore of them. This is why AS was required to have their half and half 734's in fixed position to the point to where you cannot move the bulkheads.
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HAWK21M
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RE: A320F When........

Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:25 pm

I find it strange that there is no Freighter conversion done on an A320 series type yet.....The reasons of costs probably is the tilting factor.
But considering the demand for freighters,I would have though there would be a market for the type globally.
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Stitch
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RE: A320F When........

Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:40 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
Doing the convertible versions, the FAA had decided at some point long ago,. not to certify anymore of them.

As a convertible, the 737-700C can be configured either in an all-cargo or an all-passenger layout as necessary by a carrier. It is not designed to be used in a combi configuration - part passenger and part cargo.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: A320F When........

Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
As a convertible, the 737-700C can be configured either in an all-cargo or an all-passenger layout as necessary by a carrier. It is not designed to be used in a combi configuration - part passenger and part cargo.

What I meant was, the FAA will not certify any new aircraft (or any 2nd hand, for that matter) to be converted from a full pax to a combi, to turn it to a half pax half cargo and full cargo and full pax interchangeable (Like what AS 732's had) anymore. Now they are required to have a fixed bulkhead. Some of the AS 734 combi is now set up this way: Half pax, half cargo through and through.
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HAWK21M
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RE: A320F When........

Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:18 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
As a convertible, the 737-700C can be configured either in an all-cargo or an all-passenger layout as necessary by a carrier. It is not designed to be used in a combi configuration - part passenger and part cargo.

That would be a -QC version [Quick change version] that was present on the B732.
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AirframeAS
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RE: A320F When........

Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
That would be a -QC version [Quick change version] that was present on the B732.

Yes, thank you. It has been a long time since I have used that term, let alone being on a 732QC. The FAA won't certify anymore airplanes that are to be QC's. They stopped that with AS.
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doug_or
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RE: A320F When........

Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:52 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 11):
Yes, thank you. It has been a long time since I have used that term, let alone being on a 732QC. The FAA won't certify anymore airplanes that are to be QC's. They stopped that with AS.

I thought the FAA's problem was only with the combis. What is the problem with the quick change/convertible aircraft? The 737-700C came out after the ban on combis.
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HAWK21M
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RE: A320F When........

Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:39 am

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 12):
The 737-700C came out after the ban on combis.

Is the -700C used as a combi or a freighter....
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Stitch
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RE: A320F When........

Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:43 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
Is the -700C used as a combi or a freighter....

It's a "quick change" platform that can be switched between all-cargo or all-passenger configuration, depending on the need of the flight.

It is not certified to have a mix of passengers and freight on the main deck due to the restriction on combos without fixed bulkheads as noted upthread.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: A320F When........

Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:29 am

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 12):
I thought the FAA's problem was only with the combis.

The combi's are not an issue becuase it has a fixed bulkhead that cannot be removed. The AS 734 combi's have this now. They are not interchangable at all.

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 12):
What is the problem with the quick change/convertible aircraft?

I have no idea, I actually forgot. There was a thread on it awhile ago when AS had it's first 734 going through a major alternation to turn it from a full pax to a combi.

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 12):
The 737-700C came out after the ban on combis.

You have that backwards. There is no ban on combis. The FAA will not certify another aircraft as a QC.
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RE: A320F When........

Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):

I should have been more clear. What I should have stated was moveable bulkhead combis in both cases. I am aware of AS's fixed bulkhead combis, and believe Boeing even considered offering a fixed bulkhead 737-700 (think I saw it in AW&ST many moons ago).
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ha763
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RE: A320F When........

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:46 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
You have that backwards. There is no ban on combis. The FAA will not certify another aircraft as a QC.

No, there is no ban on combis, but the problem the FAA has with combis is fire protection and smoke penetration from the main deck cargo compartment, which is classified as Class B, into the pax cabin. Because of tests done after SA295, the FAA came out with AD 93-07-15 (search for it as the link will not come out correctly in my post). AS obviously went with Option 4 in the AD to get the 734 combis certified.

As for convertibles and QCs that are not combis, it is a lot easier to meet the new regulations as you are not mixing pax into the equation. You are either carrying all pax or all cargo.
 
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RE: A320F When........

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:32 am

Quoting ha763 (Reply 17):

Keep in mind, the AS 734's are not on QC and are not even certified them to be. The FAA said no to the QC on the AS 734, IIRC. It is in a thread here on A.net somewhere, but I cannot find it.
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ha763
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RE: A320F When........

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:45 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 18):

The FAA said no to a moveable bulkhead in the combi, not a QC. The QC is just an option for convertible aircraft so that it can be quickly changed between pax and freighter configurations. In a QC, you just remove the pallets the seats are installed on and leave the overhead bins. It takes less than 1 hour to change a QC between pax and freighter configurations and back. The 737-700C is available with the QC option. In a convertible without the QC option, the overhead bins are also removed, but takes much longer to change between pax and freighter configurations. The combi is just another option that was available for convertible aircraft.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: A320F When........

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:42 am

Quoting ha763 (Reply 19):
the overhead bins are also removed

Not on the AS 732's they were not.
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ha763
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RE: A320F When........

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:47 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
Not on the AS 732's they were not.

Because they had the QC option. Boeing did not have a separate model series for the convertible, QC, or combi. It all falls under 737-200C. Even Boeing calls the AS 732Cs as combi/QCs.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/feature/737qc.html
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: A320F When........

Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:25 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
It's a "quick change" platform that can be switched between all-cargo or all-passenger configuration, depending on the need of the flight.

then it should have been named the B737--700QC & NOT -700C....any reason?.
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HAWK21M
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RE: A320F When........

Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm

Just noticed this thread while posting another one....

Will the A320NEO have the freighter option in future.
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cargolex
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RE: A320F When........

Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 23):
Will the A320NEO have the freighter option in future.

Maybe in the far future as a conversion, but certainly not from the factory.

There isn't any market for new-build narrowbody freighters - although if the 757 was still in production, that might be a different story. The A321 NEO would lose considerable range and need more beefing up to do the job of the now-defunct new-build 757PF, plus, there's so much demand for the NEO that the line will be busy for many years building passenger versions.

Boeing does offer the previously-mentioned 737-700C, but there have been very few takers, in part because people who need a freighter can get a converted 733 or 734 for so much less outlay, and in part because narrowbody freighters have considerably lower utilization than new-build passenger aircraft. There isn't much of a need for a new-build narrow freighter when conversions cost so much less and do the job just fine. The -700C seems to be mainly used for specialty and government missions.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: A320F When........

Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:06 pm

Cost does matter......If one is carry freight....The model could be older and available at a cheaper price.
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Viscount724
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RE: A320F When........

Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:45 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
It's a "quick change" platform that can be switched between all-cargo or all-passenger configuration, depending on the need of the flight.

then it should have been named the B737--700QC & NOT -700C....any reason?.

Boeing uses C for "Convertible" which is what the -700C is, either all passenger or all-cargo. If memory correct, Boeing only used "QC" as a marketing designation. I believe the 727 and 737 "QC" was technically certified as "C" not "QC". The 737-200C was also the "combi" designation, and a dozen or more are still flying in Canada as there is nothing else that can do the same job, including the flexible cabin layout with a movable divider and the ability to land on unpaved runways.
 
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Stitch
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RE: A320F When........

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 26):
If memory correct, Boeing only used "QC" as a marketing designation. I believe the 727 and 737 "QC" was technically certified as "C" not "QC".

According to the 727 and 737 ACAPS, "Quick Change" refers specifically to palletized passenger seating that works with a Convertible aircraft. So the basic plane is a 727-100C or 737-200C and then there would be the "Quick Change" seating pallets.

In the case of the 747-200C, which was a 747-200 freighter with passenger windows, cargo was loaded through the nose door and passengers were seated in the aft of the plane (the reverse of the Combi, which used a 747 passenger frame with an aft cargo door).


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SXDFC
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RE: A320F When........

Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:53 am

Came across this picture today, a 737-700(QC)


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Sorry if others have known about this, but this is the first time I've seen a Civilian 737-700QC..
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HAWK21M
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RE: A320F When........

Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:51 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 26):
The 737-200C was also the "combi" designation

The B732 had both the B732C & the B732QC.
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