bueb0g
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Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:13 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=925MgqyU2NA&feature=player_embedded

I cannot believe that I just watched that. That's Russia for you, I guess - particularly relevant with the recent UTair ATR crash.

To me, this certainly looks very dangerous - is it actually as bad as it seems? Either way, it should have been de-iced.
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CaptainKramer
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:20 pm

Dangerous is not the word, suicidal is more what I would be thinking. What is most unbelieveable is that it got airborne without any apparent buffeting or apparent degradation in performance. Imagine being on that plane looking out the window and see it commence it's takeoff roll with that amount of snow sitting on the wing.

Could a layer of ice have formed under the snow covering the wing if certain temperatures had prevailed at the time or before as the plane sat idle?
 
Phen
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:39 pm

That is unbelievable, the spoilers are covered with snow; whats to say they won't freeze and seize up mid-flight?

Just as a side question- when the control surfaces are tested as part of the pre-flight checks, how does the flight deck know if there is a problem? Is there some sort of alarm which sounds if an aileron for example isn't working correctly? Would the weight of snow/ice be enough to alert the crew of something wrong with one of the control surfaces?
 
CaptainKramer
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:58 pm

That's a good question Phen, you have to wonder if a control surface check was even done, surely it would have dislodged alot of snow if one had been performed. I can't see any evidence.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting Phen (Reply 2):
Is there some sort of alarm which sounds if an aileron for example isn't working correctly?

Most modern jet transports have flight control position indicators which are monitored as the flight controls are being tested. On the A320, it is on the Flight Control ECAM page.

As the flight controls are being tested before takeoff this page is monitored for full control surface travel.

Also, if any of the FBW computers detect an error, it will be annunciated during this test.

However, with 3000 psi hydraulic pressure, and control surfaces that can go to full deflections at 350 knots, it is unlikely that snow or ice would hinder their movement.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Thread starter):
Either way, it should have been de-iced.

Swept is more like it...it doesn't seem to have any ice on it.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 1):
What is most unbelieveable is that it got airborne without any apparent buffeting or apparent degradation in performance

By the time they rotate, the snow has blown off all the areas where there was smooth airflow anyway, so it's not surprising they made it. It's a fairly impressive act of faith to start rolling with the snow in place though.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 1):
Could a layer of ice have formed under the snow covering the wing if certain temperatures had prevailed at the time or before as the plane sat idle?

Yes, but the only way I can see anyone rationalizing something like this is during the time of year when it never gets close to being above freezing that you'd have any ice formation. It's possible, though I'd be surprised if they have an OpsSpec for it, that they know from experience that it's just dry snow without any ice and it will blow off.

Quoting Phen (Reply 2):
That is unbelievable, the spoilers are covered with snow; whats to say they won't freeze and seize up mid-flight?

If that were a problem, you'd have the same thing happen every time an airplane takes off in the rain.

Quoting Phen (Reply 2):
Just as a side question- when the control surfaces are tested as part of the pre-flight checks, how does the flight deck know if there is a problem?

If it's a modern aircraft with a flight control synoptic, the crew looks at the synoptic and verifies the surfaces are moving as commanded.

Quoting Phen (Reply 2):
Is there some sort of alarm which sounds if an aileron for example isn't working correctly?

On a FBW, there should be. The control surfaces are all closed loop so the control computers know when a surface isn't following the command.

Quoting Phen (Reply 2):
Would the weight of snow/ice be enough to alert the crew of something wrong with one of the control surfaces?

No. The aerodynamic load is a lot more than the snow load, so the actuators are more than powerful enough to lift the snow.

Tom.
 
yeelep
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:30 pm

It would be interesting to read that airlines deice manual. They don't seem to abide by the clean airplane concept. As Tom said, they should have swept or blown the wings and horz. stab. at the very least. Some airlines would also require the crown the be cleaned.
 
CaptainKramer
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:46 pm

Thanks tdscanuck,

Rationale will never trump physics, but I imagine some airlines still play that game.

That's why I can never get my head around pilots who risk an airplane and it's passengers by foregoing a deice to make up for lost time or save money and risk being permanently late, or not performing a go-around when landing long in bad weather just to maintain a schedual or save money. Your schedule is well and trully shot if you write the plane off and kill your customers.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:46 pm

You know, back when I started in aviation (late 80's) it was not uncommon for an aircraft to depart with snow on the wings/fuselage so long as it hadn't iced up and wasn't to 'wet'.

This blew off pretty well before take-off.

All in all, this type of take-off is now against the rules, at least here in the US.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Pihero
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:08 pm

I have seen this type of flying countless times in the olld Soviet Union, at Moscou, Kiev and various airports.
with temperatures well below freezing -say -20°C and below, they are sure that there is no ice under the powdered snow and tha powdered snow is made of "rounder" crystals than the pretty branched ones you'd find at temperatures around zero.
That means the snow will never compact on its own but will blow off with the relative airflow.
First time I saw it, it was an IL-62 with about - I swear ! - 10 cm of snow on its surfaces and I called the tower to tell about an aircraft that hadn't deiced I had to repeat the message ten times - the tower didn't get it and the -62 took off in a spectacular cloud of blown white snow... five minutes later a TU 154 did the same, and then another...
The above info was given to me by a senior Aeroflot captain who clmaimed tha it is in fact safer than deicing and then letting the validity time elapse...
One has to be very sure of oneself and that puts the proverbial act of faith into another perspective.
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Phen
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:17 pm

Thanks tdscanuck and longhauler for your answers!
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:09 pm

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 1):
What is most unbelieveable is that it got airborne without any apparent buffeting or apparent degradation in performance.

We don't know that there wasn't performance degradation. This can happen without being obvious to a video, just as an aside...

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):
It's a fairly impressive act of faith to start rolling with the snow in place though.

Quite Very, yes.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):
It's possible, though I'd be surprised if they have an OpsSpec for it, that they know from experience that it's just dry snow without any ice and it will blow off.

Could they, from a regulatory standpoint, remove a patch of snow from the wing surface and inspect? I know that a refueler, for example, will have very easy access to the wingtops on the A32x series, and they're nearby anyway prior to flight. I know that's a no-go here, but as the OP said... This is Russia.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):

No. The aerodynamic load is a lot more than the snow load, so the actuators are more than powerful enough to lift the snow.

I once witnessed a tool bag get flung about ten feet in front of a 757-200 wing when another mechanic inadvertently deployed spoilers without checking the wings first. Those actuators are indeed no joke.

Quoting yeelep (Reply 6):
Some airlines would also require the crown the be cleaned.

That would certainly add a ridiculous amount of time, and really isn't necessary.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
All in all, this type of take-off is now against the rules, at least here in the US.

Gone the way of the power-back...
Be A Perfectionst, You're Nothing If You're Just Another; Something Material, This Isn't Personal...
 
yeelep
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 11):
Quoting yeelep (Reply 6):
Some airlines would also require the crown the be cleaned.

That would certainly add a ridiculous amount of time, and really isn't necessary.

Necessary or not, if its part of your approved deice program, you have to abide. And once its part of the program, its very difficult to have it removed.
 
spudsmac
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:37 am

I wonder what would happen to you in the US if you saw this was going to occur, alerted the FA, was dismissed by them and you popped the emergency exit in a last ditch effort to stop the T/O.

If I get in that situation, I think that's the best way tot stop the takeoff.
 
Acheron
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:34 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 9):
First time I saw it, it was an IL-62 with about - I swear ! - 10 cm of snow on its surfaces and I called the tower to tell about an aircraft that hadn't deiced I had to repeat the message ten times - the tower didn't get it and the -62 took off in a spectacular cloud of blown white snow... five minutes later a TU 154 did the same, and then another...

I figured this was a throwback "procedure" to the days of the classic soviet airliners. Things were built like tanks.
 
U2380
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:20 am

Quoting spudsmac (Reply 13):
I wonder what would happen to you in the US if you saw this was going to occur, alerted the FA, was dismissed by them and you popped the emergency exit in a last ditch effort to stop the T/O.

If I get in that situation, I think that's the best way tot stop the takeoff.

I can only guess but:

Before the takeoff roll- probably some time in prison and a very large fine.

[Edited 2012-04-10 01:21:23]

[Edited 2012-04-10 01:21:50]

[Edited 2012-04-10 01:25:48]
 
BA777
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:15 am

Zero airmanship shown in this video.

You would think the pilots would notice contaminated surfaces during the walkaround. You would think the airline would have a "clean wing" policy and reassure pilots that the time taken to de-ice, even if not sure it's needed, is the safe option and safety is the first priority.

As mentioned above, the potential for ice below the snow is the real threat and of course until the snow is removed the ice is very hard to detect. It's the ice that will increase the drag and the stall speed of the aircraft and end up killing everyone.
 
Pihero
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:04 am

Quoting BA777 (Reply 16):
Zero airmanship shown in this video.

And who are you to tell ?
Part of airmanship is SA, in this case knowledge of the weather phenomna one is going to fly in and ice physics say that , provided the OAT hasn'tclimbed into positive temperatures since the airplane last flight, dry powdered snow isn't going to stick to the airframe... Actually, this is an illustration of a particular type of airmanship.

For those clamouring for de-icing, here is a challenge : OAT = -26°C / light snow, de-icing fluids available : Generic Types I, II and IV. What are the HOTs ?.. Now suppose that you deice at the gate but youy suffer a 15 min delay for cargo offloading. Taxi time is 10 minutes.(All the info is on the web, so no excuse )

Then we can talk about real airmanship.
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PapaChuck
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:51 pm

Problem is, the snow/slush was still clinging to the wings after it became airborne. It didn't just blow away. You can't tell me the wing was clean when it left the ground. Air Ontario 1363, anyone? Yikes!

PC
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CM
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:43 pm

OK, that was troubling.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 9):
with temperatures well below freezing -say -20°C and below, they are sure that there is no ice under the powdered snow
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):
the only way I can see anyone rationalizing something like this is during the time of year when it never gets close to being above freezing

I'm sure this is why they can take off with confidence, but it still seems crazy to me. All it would take is for that airplane to be fueled by a truck which spent the night in a maintenance depot, or through some other circumstance had its fuel load warmed to 1 degree above freezing. If that airplane had been fueled with an uplift which was above freezing you would have ice underneath the snow and an aerodynamically very different wing. I guess because they note the temp of the fuel at uplift, they can have confidence this has not happened also, but I would never feel comfortable flying on that airplane.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 9):
a senior Aeroflot captain who clmaimed tha it is in fact safer than deicing and then letting the validity time elapse...

In exceptionally cold weather, once the extreme cold weather startup procedures are complete, I suppose it would be possible that waiting too long for de-icing could result in undoing some of what you have just done to get ready to fly. That's why an infrared taxi-through style de-icing tent would be handy for operators who need to de-ice 100+ days per year.
 
BA777
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:11 pm

I may not have huge experience of winter operations. I like to learn.
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:13 pm

Anybody know which operator this is ?

It seems that this kind of thing used to go on back in the day during the Soviet aircraft domestic operations, and there are still some pilots that still think that it is still ok.
The A320 FCOM requires the wing to be clear of snow and Ice for take-off. They are clearly violating this requirement.

I wonder if this airline has any codeshare partner or is a member of one of the Alliances, i'm sure they would be very interested to see this?
 
Hywel
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:15 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 21):
Anybody know which operator this is ?
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 21):
I wonder if this airline has any codeshare partner or is a member of one of the Alliances, i'm sure they would be very interested to see this?



It's Aeroflot, Airbus A320-214, VP-BKY.
Date 01.01.2012, flight from SVO to LED.

I bet SkyTeam are interested...

[Edited 2012-04-10 08:18:35]
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 22):

It's Aeroflot, Airbus A320-214, VP-BKY.
Date 01.01.2012, flight from SVO to LED.

I bet SkyTeam are interested...

Aeroflot ?   

Well this is going to do a lot of damage to Aeroflot's reputation. With social media the way it is today you just can't get away with this kind of stuff anymore.

I'm sure their Skyteam partners are going to be very interested in this.

They have made a big effort to move away from the old Aeroflot image of the past, with nice modern new Boeing and Airbus types, but this is going to give the perception that the old Aeroflot is alive and well.
 
ferpe
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:37 pm

@Pihero, thanks for giving the insight into how the Russians view this, guess they have a lot of experience about cold weather flying that the rest of world (except for Alska) does not have. We learned this already at WW2.


Am I the only one to see that he flow is not attached above the pylon fairings? Guess the turbulent air passing the fairings below the flap makes no good mating partner for the air passing above the wing. Should be possible to do something better here    .
Non French in France
 
Hywel
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 23):
They have made a big effort to move away from the old Aeroflot image of the past, with nice modern new Boeing and Airbus types, but this is going to give the perception that the old Aeroflot is alive and well.

Well remember Aeroflot flight 821?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_821

The main reason for the crash was that both pilots had lost spatial orientation due to their lack of proficiency with the Western type of attitude indicator on the aircraft. Fatigue from lack of adequate rest, poor CRM and alcohol in the Captain's tissues also contributed to the accident.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 14):
I figured this was a throwback "procedure" to the days of the classic soviet airliners. Things were built like tanks.

Using Ropes over the wings to break away ice is still approved practice at many major airlines...
 
rcair1
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 1):
Imagine being on that plane looking out the window and see it commence it's takeoff roll with that amount of snow sitting on the wing.

I would be screaming bloody murder - although the charge would be manslaughter in the event of a crash.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 4):
As the flight controls are being tested before takeoff this page is monitored for full control surface travel.

As mentioned, the actuators can overpower the snow load easily. However, if they treat a snowy wing like this - I would have no confidence they bothered to check control continuity. As others have mentioned, they violated FCOM for the A320 - so they have demonstrated a lack of regard for regulations/checklists.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):
Swept is more like it...it doesn't seem to have any ice on it.

With due respect, I disagree. It is not at all clear from that video that the wing is clean. There are areas with snow remaining after lift off and that wing does not look clean to me. There is a clear line which looks like a frost line on the flaps where they would meet the wing in the stowed position. The part of the flaps that had been exposed to the snow is clearly different in color to me that the part that had been covered. That looks like contamination. Yes, contamination there may not be critical to lift - but it is indicative of potential contamination in other parts.

It may be the critical areas are clear - it is hard to tell from that video. Clearly they created lift, but the marvels of A320 FBW may have been the reason they made it.

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 11):
Gone the way of the power-back...

Different case - I don't know of any cases where a powerback later caused a plane to crash. There are dozens (hundred?) cases of contaminated wings causes crashes.

Quoting PapaChuck (Reply 18):
Problem is, the snow/slush was still clinging to the wings after it became airborne. It didn't just blow away. You can't tell me the wing was clean when it left the ground. Air Ontario 1363, anyone? Yikes!

People here are saying that, but I agree with you. It did not appear clean to me. I would not take that risk.
rcair1
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting BA777 (Reply 16):
As mentioned above, the potential for ice below the snow is the real threat and of course until the snow is removed the ice is very hard to detect.

We're talking Russia in the winter; sustained temperature that never go about about -10C. Depending on their other operating environment, they may have very very high confidence that there is no ice.

Quoting PapaChuck (Reply 18):
Problem is, the snow/slush was still clinging to the wings after it became airborne. It didn't just blow away. You can't tell me the wing was clean when it left the ground.

The places where it's clinging are the stagnation points behind various aerodynamic oddities, like the flap fairings. The air is so messed up there that it's not making a difference to lift.

Quoting CM (Reply 19):
All it would take is for that airplane to be fueled by a truck which spent the night in a maintenance depot, or through some other circumstance had its fuel load warmed to 1 degree above freezing.

I've coordinated some Russia operations before; although I totally agree this is a concern, there are may (large!) airports in Russia where the fuel is guaranteed freezing through the winter. If you ask for warm fuel they look at you like you're crazy.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 23):
Well this is going to do a lot of damage to Aeroflot's reputation.

Not necessarily...we still haven't established if this is part of their Operations Specification. It's certainly possible that, *with* appropriate precautions (cold fuel, limited area inspection for ice, etc.), this is as safe or safer than de-icing in extremely low temperatures.

Tom.
 
Pihero
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 25):
The main reason for the crash was that both pilots had lost spatial orientation due to their lack of proficiency with the Western type of attitude indicator on the aircraft. Fatigue from lack of adequate rest, poor CRM and alcohol in the Captain's tissues also contributed to the accident.

What has that got to do with this subject ?

Quoting PapaChuck (Reply 18):
Problem is, the snow/slush was still clinging to the wings after it became airborne. It didn't just blow away.

You're just seeing in real life - and understanding, I hope - what "boundary layer" means : a very thin sheet over the wing ( or any other body in an airstream ) in which the velocity of the airflow goes from zero at the surface of the wing to the value of the undisturbed flow. Same phenomenon with the mosquitos crashed on your windscreen. the places where this doesn't apply are those over which the airflow is very turbulent... but they do not participate , as a general rule to the lift production of the wing.
With that kind of snow, there is no slush involved, especially at those very low temperatures.

Quoting CM (Reply 19):
All it would take is for that airplane to be fueled by a truck which spent the night in a maintenance depot, or through some other circumstance had its fuel load warmed to 1 degree above freezing. If that airplane had been fueled with an uplift which was above freezing you would have ice underneath the snow and an aerodynamically very different wing.

Fuel freezing point in Russia is around -50°C and there is for them no difference between civil and mil OPS and I do not think that they ever warm their fuel up ( never happened to me in tens of occurrences ). So that theoretically very sound argument of yours just doesn't apply here : the fuel temp at uplift is within a degree or two of the OAT out of the bowser.

Quoting CM (Reply 19):

In exceptionally cold weather, once the extreme cold weather startup procedures are complete, I suppose it would be possible that waiting too long for de-icing could result in undoing some of what you have just done to get ready to fly.

That's one point.
The basic tenet of de-icing is not to make surfaces worse, in this case find oneself with an aerodynamically dirtier wing than it was originally. So one of the criteria is to use fluids the freezing point of which is at least 10°C lower than OAT.
Fluids with a freezing point of -30°C ( so valid for OATs of -20°C ) do not exist in Russia ( Some could be found in Cana da or Alaska...)

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 28):
I've coordinated some Russia operations before; although I totally agree this is a concern, there are many (large!) airports in Russia where the fuel is guaranteed freezing through the winter. If you ask for warm fuel they look at you like you're crazy.

I'm taking a long time writing this post and Tom has come to the rescue with his own experince which seems to agree with mine.

Oh ! with the above info, someone could solve my little problem of post # 17 and tell us more about airmanship.
Contrail designer
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 28):
Not necessarily...we still haven't established if this is part of their Operations Specification. It's certainly possible that, *with* appropriate precautions (cold fuel, limited area inspection for ice, etc.), this is as safe or safer than de-icing in extremely low temperatures.

Surely you still need the manufacturer to approve an amendment to the FCOM? I'd be surprised if Aeroflot and the Russian CAA have modified the FCOM on their own? And i can't see Airbus endorsing this technique.

On the other issue regarding temp, here is the metar history assuming the date above is correct. As you can see it was not extreme cold temperature. (I've just included the daylight times).


SA 01/01/2012 09:00->
METAR UUEE 010900Z 21003MPS 2000 SHSN BKN004 BKN019CB M00/M01
Q1009 NOSIG RMK 75590330 25550345=

SA 01/01/2012 09:30->
METAR UUEE 010930Z 23003MPS 2000 SN OVC005 M00/M00 Q1009
NOSIG RMK 75590330 25550345=

SA 01/01/2012 10:00->
METAR UUEE 011000Z 22004MPS 2300 -SN OVC006 M00/M00 Q1009
NOSIG RMK 75590345 25590345=

SA 01/01/2012 10:30->
METAR UUEE 011030Z 24004MPS 3000 -SN OVC007 M00/M01 Q1009
NOSIG RMK 75590345 25590345=

SA 01/01/2012 11:00->
METAR UUEE 011100Z 24004MPS 3000 -SN OVC005 M00/M01 Q1010
NOSIG RMK 75590345 25590345=

SA 01/01/2012 11:31->
METAR COR UUEE 011131Z 25003MPS 3000 BR OVC006 M00/M01 Q1010
NOSIG RMK 25590345 75590345=

SA 01/01/2012 12:00->
METAR UUEE 011200Z 21003MPS 3000 BR OVC006 M00/M01 Q1010
NOSIG RMK 25590345 75590345=

SA 01/01/2012 12:30->
METAR UUEE 011230Z 27004MPS 4300 BR OVC006 M01/M01 Q1011
NOSIG RMK 25510145 75510145=

SA 01/01/2012 13:00->
METAR UUEE 011300Z 26003MPS 5000 BR BKN007 OVC013 M01/M02
Q1011 NOSIG RMK 25510145 75510145=

SA 01/01/2012 13:30->
METAR UUEE 011330Z 27002MPS 5000 BR OVC016 M01/M02 Q1011
NOSIG RMK 75510145 25510145=

SA 01/01/2012 14:00->
METAR UUEE 011400Z 30003MPS 5000 BR OVC017 M01/M02 Q1011
NOSIG RMK 75510145 25510145=

SA 01/01/2012 14:30->
METAR UUEE 011430Z 30003MPS 9999 BR OVC014 M01/M02 Q1012
NOSIG RMK 75510145 25510145=

SA 01/01/2012 15:00->
METAR UUEE 011500Z 27002MPS 9999 OVC013 M01/M03 Q1012 NOSIG
RMK 75510145 25510145=

SA 01/01/2012 15:30->
METAR UUEE 011530Z 24003MPS 9999 OVC017 M01/M03 Q1012 NOSIG
RMK 75510145 25510145=

SA 01/01/2012 16:00->
METAR UUEE 011600Z 28003MPS 9999 OVC022 M01/M03 Q1012 NOSIG
RMK 75510145 25510145=

S 01/01/2012 16:30->
METAR UUEE 011630Z 28003MPS 9999 OVC025 M01/M03 Q1012 NOSIG
RMK 75510145 25510145=

SA 01/01/2012 17:00->
METAR UUEE 011700Z 31002MPS 9999 OVC030 M01/M03 Q1012 NOSIG
RMK 75510145 25510145=
 
Pihero
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 30):

On the other issue regarding temp, here is the metar history assuming the date above is correct. As you can see it was not extreme cold temperature.

Obviously, these conditions ( temperatures and dew points just around freezing point ) completely change the whole picture and the likeliness of ice is a lot greater than at lower temperatures,especially when the remarks code a runway- both 25 R and L - covered with 3 mm of "wet snow".
These conditions do not seem to be those of our takeoff.
There is an interesting comment on that site from one of the most vocal posters. Here it is :
I sent a link to this video and got the following reply from AEROFLOT (signed by deputy director of operations Mr. Chalik and director of air safety Mr. Coldunov)"There is no violation - snow has been blown off instantly and therefore definitely didn't affect aerodynamics and safety"
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PapaChuck
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:43 pm

I understand the boundary layer issue, and that most of the remaining snow is clear of any critical airflow. It was probably safe to depart, but probably doesn't cut it in aviation when you have paying passengers onboard. While the risk may have indeed been small, I just think it would be wise to eliminate that risk entirely.

PC
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sabenapilot
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:33 pm

Did somebody already notice there's a small area towards the end of the wing, which looks like it had its snow removed prior to the take off?

Seems to me like they had a relatively small zone de-snowed mechanically (brush) at the gate and concluded from it all there was on the wings was just dry snow (with no ice underneath), after which they obviously went for the hairdrayer method.

Unconventional, for sure, but as others have said: not unseen in the ex-USSR either.
 
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zeke
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 17):

We use the Transport Canada HOT guidelines (http://66.46.192.186/index.html), they have updated the guidelines with the use of brooms.

"Using the wing broom to remove contamination does always mean that the wing surface is clean and safe for flight. Every time a broom is used to remove contamination a tactile inspection shall be done. If any contamination is found adhering to a critical surface, it shall be removed prior to flight."

That being said, I did not see any active precipation in the video that would warrant the application anti- ice fluid. The snow could have built up overnight and stopped for some time. A clean wing/de-ice is another matter. My concern would be the temperature of the fuel loaded increasing the wing skin temperature possibly melting and re-freezing the layer of snow next to the wing. However the fuel loaded may have been -20 deg C also.

Without all the facts, one cannot make an objective assessment of the situation or the airlines own procedures. We follow the Transport Canada guilde lines literally. I find it amusing when we were the only airline de-icing in Vancouver as our cold soaked aircraft often form some clear ice on the upper surface of the wing in the area of the fuel tanks, whilst local Canadian operators using the same guidelines would have the attitude that ice from a cold soaked aircraft does not warrant de-ice.
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tdscanuck
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:52 am

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 30):
Surely you still need the manufacturer to approve an amendment to the FCOM?

There's not regulatory requirement for that; I'm sure the OEM would like the authority but the regulator is free to do whatever they want.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 30):
I'd be surprised if Aeroflot and the Russian CAA have modified the FCOM on their own?

It wouldn't surprise me much; regulators have this authority and, though they don't often use it, a case like this is probably one where the Russian CAA and/or Aeroflot knows a lot more about cold weather operations than the OEMs.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 30):
On the other issue regarding temp, here is the metar history assuming the date above is correct. As you can see it was not extreme cold temperature.

Given that data, I agree it's nuts. Either the video date/location is wrong and the METAR information doesn't line up, or something else wierd is going on.

Tom.
 
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:09 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 35):
regulators have this authority

Most regulators will simply endorse whatever the OEM publishes in its FCOM, yet any country's regulator may indeed override any part of the FCOM if and when such is needed and it would indeed not be beyond the realm of possibilies to see the Russian CAA approve changes to the de-icing procedures of the OEM.

it's a fact that the insistance on and use of de-icing procedures has grown spectacularly over the last decades (see the stories above), yet one can ask oneself the question whether this is entirely due to a better understanding of weather phenomenons involving ice and snow and the risks involved with them as well as due to the great improvements in aerodynamics making wings far more susceptible to airflow disturbances then ever before, or whether it is also somehow driven by legal issues and increased liability fears of those writing and endorsing the FCOM (i.e. the manufacturers/CAA simply covering their back).

I'd say its probably a combination of all 3, which means that:
YES, we've learnt from cases where ice formed unexpectedly and we do not want a repeat of those,
YES, the margin for misjudgement has become smaller as wings have been optimized,
but also:
YES, we're made to de-ice far more often than ever before because the manufacturer may have made life easy on himself and so we are made to de-ice also in cases where no de-ice is due.

When reading through the comments on the video on YouTube, it really stikes me that none of the posters ever questioned whether somehow sound judgement may have been involved in all this?
Rather than immediately bash the pilots and their airline from a somewhat disturbing attitude of clear superiority, maybe all those posters should first admit most people (including themselves) may not understand all that much about cold weather operations and thus accept that the FCOM is making up for that fairly limited knowledge and thus inability of correct judgement on the exact needs of the day by painting the de-icing recommendations with an incredibly wide brush.
 
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zeke
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:14 am

Quoting sabenapilot (Reply 36):

Generally speaking the FCOMs are the recommended amplified manufacturers procedures, the actual legal document is normally the approved flight manual. Most regulators allow operators to used the FCOMs as the manual used in he aircraft, all of the legal limits from the AFM are also in the FCOMs. The operator then normally keeps the AFM is their head office.

The FCOMs can be amended/tailored by the operator, the part of the FCOMs that are frequently amended by operators include the checklist and QRH. Operators often amend these to suit their specific operation, often with the inclusion of additional information.

Most regulators do not "approve" FCOMs or operations manuals, they are "accepted". This may sound like semantics, however it puts the legal liability for the procedures in the hands of the operator, this does not expose the regulator then if an incident were to occur, the operator retains the legal liabity for their procedures.

If the operator then fails to maintain the capability to maintain the operational documents, the regulator will issue a show cause, and/or may suspend, and/or revoke the air operators certificate.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:19 am

A View of the Leading edges would have been Interesting....
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Fabo
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:59 pm

Damn. I would have been scared s**tless were I sitting there.
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Pihero
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting sabenapilot (Reply 33):
Did somebody already notice there's a small area towards the end of the wing, which looks like it had its snow removed prior to the take off?
Seems to me like they had a relatively small zone de-snowed mechanically (brush) at the gate and concluded from it all there was on the wings was just dry snow (with no ice underneath), after which they obviously went for the hairdryer method.

I agree, that was an aspect I was about to comment on. You're way faster than I !  
Quoting zeke (Reply 34):

That being said, I did not see any active precipation in the video that would warrant the application anti- ice fluid.

Yes, a bit of contradiction to the 01 / 01 METARS.
And thanks for the Canada link. Quite enlightening as they probably have extra cold wx experience as the Russians.

Quoting sabenapilot (Reply 36):
it really stikes me that none of the posters ever questioned whether somehow sound judgement may have been involved in all this

We seem to be set in our culture and habits and tend to disregard other people's experience and ways of operations.
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BEG2IAH
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 28):
We're talking Russia in the winter; sustained temperature that never go about about -10C. Depending on their other operating environment, they may have very very high confidence that there is no ice.
Quoting Pihero (Reply 9):
have seen this type of flying countless times in the olld Soviet Union, at Moscou, Kiev and various airports. with temperatures well below freezing -say -20°C and below, they are sure that there is no ice under the powdered snow and tha powdered snow is made of "rounder" crystals than the pretty branched ones you'd find at temperatures around zero.

The same thing you notice when you go skiing. If you leave your skis in your hotel room overnight, they are warm and the snow will stick to them really bad until they become cold again. If you keep them outside overnight, not a flake will stick to them.

If anyone has a ton of experience flying in this type of weather it's Russians.
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting Fabo (Reply 39):
Damn. I would have been scared s**tless were I sitting there.

Same here, but since the pilots lives are on the line....I would close the shade and try to enjoy the flight.

Pilots are not stupid suicidal.... so I trust them

TRB
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bikerthai
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 38):
A View of the Leading edges would have been Interesting....

Maybe not. The Anti Ice system would probably have been on, so the leading edge would have been clean. Unless their operating procedure allow them to shut that off also . . .

bt
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Pihero
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 43):
The Anti Ice system would probably have been on, so the leading edge would have been clean

No. Anti-ice works only when the airplane is airborne.
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BEG2IAH
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 44):
No. Anti-ice works only when the airplane is airborne.

Pihero, three quick questions.

1) Is that to prevent injuries of ground handlers?
2) Is it to avoid unintentional icing of the part of the wing adjacent to the leading edge where it would get warm enough (but not hot) to create slush? I guess as the a/c starts the take off roll some of the pre-thawed snow may freeze pretty quickly.
3) None of the above?  

Thanks.
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Pihero
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:16 pm

One has to know that the wing anti-ice only concerns the last three outboard slats and that it is done by bleed air.
So :
-it only works with the engines running
-the bled air is very hot and may provoke some deformations in the slats and their environment in the absence of "cooling effect from airstream and cold soak".

Regards
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HAWK21M
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:20 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 43):
Unless their operating procedure allow them to shut that off also

 
Quoting Pihero (Reply 44):
No. Anti-ice works only when the airplane is airborne.

Should be with Engines running....
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Pihero
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:34 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 47):
Should be with Engines running....

Not enough : and when airborne..Except for a total time of 30 seconds for ground testing..
With the engines not running, no anti-ioce, but then you'd have greater concerns.  Big grin

Cheers

[Edited 2012-04-12 00:45:54]
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bikerthai
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RE: Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video

Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 44):
No. Anti-ice works only when the airplane is airborne.

Is this true with Inlet Anti-Ice also?

I understand that you may not want to take bleed air during the stage when you need max power for take-off.

But I also heard stories of pilots turning and leaving the anti-ice on for the whole flight profile.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.

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