mhkansan
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AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:41 am

Hi! I'm aboard AA 507 from DCA to ORD and just had my first rejected take off. I was wondering if anyone had any more insight into it.

We had just gone to take-off power and started down the runway when we throttled back and began awkwardly braking until we exited the runway and went back onto the parallel taxiway. The captain assued us everything was okay and he just had to do some additional "recalculations." after two more departures and an arrival before us, we reentered the runway and away we went!?

Would the captain had noticed he had more paperwork to do just as he departed or was it traffic/ATC related?

Just wondering if anyone has any insight. Saw quite a few folks over at Gravelly Pt. Were any of you there this morning!?
 
PGNCS
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting mhkansan (Thread starter):
I was wondering if anyone had any more insight into it.

How would we know? Why didn't you ask the Captain when you got off the plane?

Quoting mhkansan (Thread starter):
Would the captain had noticed he had more paperwork to do just as he departed or was it traffic/ATC related?

Again, why didn't you ask the Captain when you got off the plane?
 
SAAFNAV
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:46 pm

If it was paperwork, it might've been his performance calculations. (Just a thought).

His Accelerate Check Time might've been off, or he had a feeling that a speed didn't make sense. Rather stop and recalculate than screwing up a good flying day.

Erich
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Fabo
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:58 pm

Maybe some system shown fault, and after vacating it was decided not required for departure...
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71Zulu
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting SAAFNAV (Reply 2):
His Accelerate Check Time might've been off...

Is an Accelerate Time Check really done on all takeoffs?
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kcrwflyer
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 4):
Is an Accelerate Time Check really done on all takeoffs?

I would think so on shorter runways especially.
 
PGNCS
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting SAAFNAV (Reply 2):
His Accelerate Check Time might've been off, or he had a feeling that a speed didn't make sense. Rather stop and recalculate than screwing up a good flying day.
Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 5):
Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 4):
Is an Accelerate Time Check really done on all takeoffs?


I would think so on shorter runways especially.

I hope AAR90 will put this to rest promptly: I have not seen Normal or Min Accel Check Speeds (or times as a proxy) used outside of military operations, and have certainly never used them myself in DCA in the hundreds of times I have been there. I have never seen this data presented in the pilot manual set for any Boeing, McD, Lockheed, or Airbus I have flown (though doubtless the data exists for engineering and performance analysis purposes; the data might be buried in the performance section of the FCOM or equivalent, but I have certainly never had the need to look for it.) Nor have I encountered these speeds/times/distances in any civil contract flying or instruction I have done for a variety of airlines from all over the world.

Actual knowledge beats speculation in any thread of this nature, so please chime in AAR90.
 
AAR90
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:05 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 6):
Actual knowledge beats speculation in any thread of this nature, so please chime in AAR90.

Not sure what you wish to know. AA does not utilize accelerate time checks for takeoffs.

Taking the original statement that there were "additional recalculations" to be made, the most logical situation was that the crew received an ACARS message canceling their "Load Closeout" (final weight/balance numbers --normally sent via ACARS). Many different things can cause a Load Closeout to be canceled (it is an automated function) and no AA flight may takeoff without a valid Load Closeout.

The plane is flying its second ORD-SFO flight today and there is nothing in the electronic maintenance log to indicate any mechanical problems (past 2 days). Probably just another paperwork "SNAFU."
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PGNCS
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:14 am

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 7):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 6):
Actual knowledge beats speculation in any thread of this nature, so please chime in AAR90.

Not sure what you wish to know. AA does not utilize accelerate time checks for takeoffs.

I wanted an AA pilot to definitively stop the speculation that there was an issue with an acceleration time or speed check (which I was confident you did not use,) but nobody can speak more authoritatively here on AA's procedures than you, hence my desire to have you put that theory to rest promptly. Thank you.
 
EMBQA
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:11 pm

Quoting mhkansan (Thread starter):

The reasons are too numerous to mention. Just because he said 'calculations' doesn't really mean that was the reason.
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twinotter
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
The reasons are too numerous to mention. Just because he said 'calculations' doesn't really mean that was the reason.

Exactly. Low-energy rejected takeoffs aren't terribly unusual. I know of a pilot who left a personal item on the console that blocked the throttles. I don't know what he said to the passengers about the rejected takeoff, but I know it wasn't the whole truth!
 
CM
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting Fabo (Reply 3):
Maybe some system shown fault, and after vacating it was decided not required for departure...

There are actually very few fault indications which would cause a crew to reject a takeoff. The ones which do exist are very rare to occur only after you have selected TO thrust. Not impossible, but very unlikely. Config warnings would appear well before TO thrust was selected. Other time-critical flight deck effects (the kind you would reject a takeoff for) are exceptionally rare. On Boeing aircraft (AA507 is a 737-800) for most types of faults, it is legal and crews are trained to complete the current flight leg, (which begins at engine start) with the fault present. If this happened to be one of those rare instances where it was indeed a flight deck indication requiring rejection of the takeoff, it is unlikely to be a fault which could be addressed via "paperwork" (e.g. the MEL), with the aircraft getting a fresh release within minutes.

Given the fact the airplane almost immediately received a fresh release and is now continuing a second leg with a clean logbook, AAR90's guess at a late call regarding an airplane weight or CG change seems as probable as any other scenario. I'd just feel a lot better if those calls were happening well prior to the TO roll.
 
PGNCS
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:11 pm

Quoting CM (Reply 11):
AAR90's guess at a late call regarding an airplane weight or CG change seems as probable as any other scenario. I'd just feel a lot better if those calls were happening well prior to the TO roll.

I certainly cannot speak to this incident, obviously, or for AA policy, but if I had what appeared to be a reasonable set of weights and speeds, I would be disinclined to reject a takeoff for a paperwork issue, and certainly I would not at high speed (I have no clue at what speed this occurred, of course.)

The PIC is the one on the spot, and he is the best informed of the aircraft's overall situation; that he didn't elaborate on the specific cause of the RTO and instead put it into words the vast majority of travelers can understand is completely defensible and reasonable.
 
CM
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 12):
I would be disinclined to reject a takeoff for a paperwork issue, and certainly I would not at high speed

Indeed. RTOs have their own set of risks, most of which increase with the speed at which you reject. I've only experienced one RTO on a revenue flight, and that happened at around 10 knots... not much risk there. 15 seconds later, it's a completely different situation.
 
Fabo
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting CM (Reply 11):
There are actually very few fault indications which would cause a crew to reject a takeoff.

I can understand that for high-speed reject, but how about 40ish knots?
The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
 
CM
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting Fabo (Reply 14):
I can understand that for high-speed reject, but how about 40ish knots?

Boeing aircraft (and I suspect Airbus are similar) will inhibit most flight deck effects during the takeoff roll, simply because they don't want the flight crew thinking about anything other than flying the airplane when the flight deck workload is very high. There are exceptions to this, but very few, and the exceptions are limited to those faults which require immediate crew awareness or action.

As far as turning back to the gate for non time-critical messages (e.g. Status-level EICAS messages in a Boeing), it doesn't matter whether you are starting your takeoff roll or are just beginning your taxi away from the gate, once the engines are started, crews are legal to complete the current leg. They may choose not to for reasons such as where maintenance or parts are available, or for reasons of passenger comfort, etc., but there is no legal obligation to abort the flight.
 
PGNCS
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:12 am

Quoting CM (Reply 15):
As far as turning back to the gate for non time-critical messages (e.g. Status-level EICAS messages in a Boeing), it doesn't matter whether you are starting your takeoff roll or are just beginning your taxi away from the gate, once the engines are started, crews are legal to complete the current leg.

CM: I generally agree with what you have said here, and while all your points are excellent it's worthwhile to note (you alluded to it in your final sentence) that individual carriers may have more restrictive policies in place than the aircraft was certified with. Obviously if it's in your carrier's procedures, you are bound by that as well.
 
Mir
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:05 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 12):
if I had what appeared to be a reasonable set of weights and speeds, I would be disinclined to reject a takeoff for a paperwork issue, and certainly I would not at high speed (I have no clue at what speed this occurred, of course.)

   If I'm on the runway, I'm not really inclined to take a look at what's on the ACARS printer - my eyes should be outside. Once takeoff thrust is applied, I certainly don't want to look at it until safely off the ground.

-Mir
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saab2000
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:05 am

Rejected T/Os are not necessarily an emergency. It is possible to get a "Caution" message before 80 knots and reject for that. It may be something which can be reset but it would normally require an entry into the aircraft's logbook. It's no big deal normally and it is normally not worth explaining it to the passengers in great detail, as many of them don't understand. They just want to know that they're safe and when they can leave for their destination.

When I have a reject I explain in layman's terms what has happened, assure the passengers the situation is safe (We'd rather be on the ground wishing we were flying than in the air wishing we were back on the ground!) and that I will keep them informed as well as I can. Keeping passengers informed is important in these situations.
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HAWK21M
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:24 am

Quoting saab2000 (Reply 18):
it is normally not worth explaining it to the passengers in great detail, as many of them don't understand. They just want to know that they're safe and when they can leave for their destination.

Exactly.....the reason could be a technical doubt or Flt ops doubt,but no point explaining details to the Pax.
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Fabo
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RE: AA 507 DCA-ORD Just Rejected Take Off

Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:05 am

Quoting saab2000 (Reply 18):
Rejected T/Os are not necessarily an emergency. It is possible to get a "Caution" message before 80 knots and reject for that. It may be something which can be reset but it would normally require an entry into the aircraft's logbook. It's no big deal normally and it is normally not worth explaining it to the passengers in great detail, as many of them don't understand. They just want to know that they're safe and when they can leave for their destination.

I was thinking exactly this. I am not sure now how TO inhibit works in a 737 but I recall being told by an ATR pilot that TO inhibit only kicks in after 70KIAS.
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