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Faro
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Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:45 am

Sometimes in non-English speaking airports, ATC exchanges are in the local language and not English.

Just wondering if there have been any incidents/accidents caused by anglophone flight crews not understanding what is going on with non-anglophone aircraft around them?

Faro
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bj87
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:36 pm

There have been several incidents worldwide where the use of non-english ATC communications attributed to an accident or near miss.

This link shows one example: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20000525-0

I think (not sure about this) that at one point the French ATC system went all English but due to protests they returned to a bi-lingual system. I really don't understand why, especially at busy airports, English isn't the sole ATC language. Being able to listen in on instructions that other aircraft get is an additional safety feature and probably also causes less confusion. For this reason ATC conversations should in my opinion always take place in English so that other pilots can understand what is happening around them.

That said. I don't wouldn't mind if the pilots and ATC have a friendly word in their own language as long as the clearances and directions remain in English. For example: it is not uncommon for controllers to speak a little of the local lingo to each other such as at Amsterdam. A lot of times a landing KLM plane will to say good morning, or make a funny comment to the tower in Dutch and then switch to English for the business end of the transmission such as clearances.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:23 am

Quoting bj87 (Reply 1):
For this reason ATC conversations should in my opinion always take place in English so that other pilots can understand what is happening around them.


Example.

You're inbound to a busy airport (somewhere like CDG or AMS). The terminal controller has 10 planes on the frequency and is transmitting every few seconds. You mean to tell me that you, one of those 10 planes on the freq, will have spacial awareness as to where all those other aircraft are, simply because they are all talking to the controller in the same language?

Come on. Let's not kid ourselves. Just because you have a fishfinder onboard doesnt mean you have the slightest clue what the controller is attempting to do, english only, or bilingual.

It's called DCPC for a reason (direct controller to pilot communication), not DPP ! If we left you guys to fend for yourselves in a busy environment like CDG or AMS, you'd probably kill yourselves anyways, in english comms, french or Dutch !

Quoting bj87 (Reply 1):
This link shows one example: http://aviation-safety.net/database/...525-0

The use of two languages was only one of many contributing factors in that incident. The main and probable cause of the incident was still poor ATC procedures at that facility.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-04-18 21:40:21]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
26point2
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:18 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):

You would be surprised how much situational awareness there is on a two crew flight deck. Hearing ATC instructions meant for other aircraft is only one piece of the big puzzle. Just as we are tuned into listening up for our call sign we are also tuned into any other clearances given for our runway and filter out the rest.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:16 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
Come on. Let's not kid ourselves. Just because you have a fishfinder onboard doesnt mean you have the slightest clue what the controller is attempting to do, english only, or bilingual.

Sorry but I'm not quite as carried away with as you seem to be and here's why. First I can't keep up with 10 other jets and what they're doing or supposed to be doing anyway. If I did I wouldn't be flying my jet anymore. Second, that's why we do have TCAS and in our case terrain depiction on the ND. To be honest the biggest and most dangerous challenge I see on a regular basis is a controller speaking heavily accented and unclear English. That's where most of the mistakes and errors we see happen. I thought that was where this post was going when I first read it and was ready to reply but not in the other case.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:06 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 4):
To be honest the biggest and most dangerous challenge I see on a regular basis is a controller speaking heavily accented and unclear English

That i agree with.

A controller speaking to aircraft in two languages, and in both cases, clear, concise and in a proper manner, is in no means a threat to safety.

A controller speaking in borken english, with poor language skills, without respecting proper phraseology, now that is something that is clearly a threat to safety.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-04-19 06:06:40]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:19 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 3):
You would be surprised how much situational awareness there is on a two crew flight deck

Are we talking about the same situational awareness where numerous times, flight crews are assigned an uninterrupted descent and still end up 10 nm final, 5000 ft above the glideslope... Is that the situational awareness you're talking about?

Then they ask for a quick 360, but the controller refuses, because he has 5 planes lined up behind him. And yet, the high flyer, who was on the same frequency all this time, failed to notice the other aircraft's positions.

Does that describe the situational awareness you're talking about?

Please, pilots are busy enough handling one aircraft, much less figuring out where the other 9 are on the frequency.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 3):
we are also tuned into any other clearances given for our runway and filter out the rest.

So by "filtering out the rest", you mean to say that none of those aircraft part of "the rest" have any direct impact on your safety?

That's a pretty bold statement to make, and exactly the point i was making. You can try and get the picture of the airspace the controller is working, but you'd be surprised to know how far that still is from the reality.

Considering pilots fly to hundreds of airports throughout their career, it is impossible to know what kind of procedures are applied at each airport.

Edit: Just food for thought.....

You do realize that 1000 ft above you, that could be another controllers airspace, and they might have an aircraft right above you, coming right at you at 500 kts, yet on another frequency !

Something to think about.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-04-19 06:28:46]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
26point2
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:48 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 6):

Why do you watch a guy get so far behind he ends up 5000' above the GS? Surely this then makes your job more dificult to sort it out later. Wouldn't it be better for you and him if you suggested a descent?

As in life there are always a few exceptions. A few pilots are challenged by situational awareness more than the rest....just as the occasional controller struggles with his Superman Complex.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:57 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 7):

Why do you watch a guy get so far behind he ends up 5000' above the GS? Surely this then makes your job more dificult to sort it out later. Wouldn't it be better for you and him if you suggested a descent?

Obviously. I was merely illustrating a point about situational awareness. Often we ask the pilot "sir, you're a bit high, are you gonna be alright?", and they still answer "yes", right down to when they need the 360 ! Pilot pride, i guess.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 7):
As in life there are always a few exceptions. A few pilots are challenged by situational awareness more than the rest....just as the occasional controller struggles with his Superman Complex.

I hate to say it, but piloting skills are becoming more and more weak as the years go by. Aircraft automations, Lack of proper training, not enough time actually flying the plane, you name it ! Just look at AF447, or Colgan 3407.

Lack of proper readbacks by pilots is now also a factor at play, and is 10 times more likely to kill someone than simply a controller talking in two languages. Yes, it is ATC's job to catch the bad readbacks, but there is one of me, and 10 of you on my frequency (actually double that, 20 !). You do the math.

All this to say that your situational awareness point is marginal at best. Plenty of other fish in the sea to sort out first that will make the skies much safer.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 7):
just as the occasional controller struggles with his Superman Complex.

What are you talking about.....ALL controllers have a superman complex !  Smile

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-04-19 07:05:41]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
bueb0g
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:10 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
Just look at AF447, or Colgan 3407.

Can name plenty of examples in recent years where flight crews have acted diligently, thought outside the box and saved their aircraft... Pulling out random examples of pilot error doesn't prove that piloting skills have got worse. Even 20 years ago there were many more accidents, both due to pilot error and other factors, so saying skills have got worse simply isn't true. The TYPE of pilot error has changed with the current level of automation however, you're right on that point, and certainly more training is required as far as human/computer interfacing in cockpits goes.
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EGGD
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
You're inbound to a busy airport (somewhere like CDG or AMS). The terminal controller has 10 planes on the frequency and is transmitting every few seconds. You mean to tell me that you, one of those 10 planes on the freq, will have spacial awareness as to where all those other aircraft are, simply because they are all talking to the controller in the same language?

Don't be ridiculous, that wasn't the point that the poster you quoted was making. Your opinion is based on a massive assumption that you and other Air Traffic Controllers are infallible, which incredibly you are not. As a result, it is always useful for us pilots to have access to any tools we can to maintain our situational awareness. The vast majority of the time everyone does a great job, but every once in a while and in particularly aggrevating circumstances (busy day with plenty of delays, bad weather, diversions?) there is a mistake and if that mistakes affects the safety of your own flight, you'll want to know about it. If I was on an approach in LVP's and I heard a controller accidentally clear an aircraft to line up and wait on the runway I'm about to land on, I am sure between myself and the Pilot Monitoring we would hear that instruction and take suitable steps to avoid it. Had the instruction been given in French, or any other languages (approved and not approved) would I pick it up? Less likely.

It isn't just safety critical situations where it makes sense to use one language, if an aircraft is receiving operational information (runway in use, winds, visibility) then it is not of much use to anyone else listening to the frequency if it is in a language some may not understand. Therefore, that information may need to be repeated many times more than necessary, or omitted altogether. There are many, many situations where it is useful to hear other transmissions on a frequency.

Interestingly, this thread was just posted on pprune. Whilst their initial questions are regarding the TCAS system, you can see how the use of a different language in communication does not help situations, especially when combined with what was most likely non-standard communication (chat..).

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/483090-tcas-ra-during-ils-approach.html

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
The use of two languages was only one of many contributing factors in that incident. The main and probable cause of the incident was still poor ATC procedures at that facility.

It was still a factor, why take the risk?

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 6):
So by "filtering out the rest", you mean to say that none of those aircraft part of "the rest" have any direct impact on your safety?

Sounds pretty obvious, doesn't it? They aren't a factor, you can use the 'cocktail party effect' to pick out communications that may directly influence you, especially during times of low workload.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
Lack of proper readbacks by pilots is now also a factor at play, and is 10 times more likely to kill someone than simply a controller talking in two languages. Yes, it is ATC's job to catch the bad readbacks, but there is one of me, and 10 of you on my frequency (actually double that, 20 !). You do the math.

Yes, that is an issue as well. It need's to be sorted, just like the use of standard phraseology and one single aviation language. Do you have a link to the study that showed it was exactly 10 times more likely?
 
bj87
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
Yes, that is an issue as well. It need's to be sorted, just like the use of standard phraseology and one single aviation language.

I think standardized phraseology could actually be even more important than the single language issue. People with bad English skills might have trouble understanding an air traffic controller with an atrocious accent. If you have standardized phrases it would not prevent confusion but would make it less likely to happen. Btw wasn't standardized phraseology already introduced or is that only in the USA per FAA? I remember reading something about the "position and hold" vs " line up and wait" instructions.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
The use of two languages was only one of many contributing factors in that incident.

If you had actually taken the time to carefully read what I wrote you would have seen that I said it ATTRIBUTED to the accident NOT CAUSED IT!!!! So I don't know why you are trying to point out something I clearly had already read and understood!!!

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):

Example.

You're inbound to a busy airport (somewhere like CDG or AMS). The terminal controller has 10 planes on the frequency and is transmitting every few seconds. You mean to tell me that you, one of those 10 planes on the freq, will have spacial awareness as to where all those other aircraft are, simply because they are all talking to the controller in the same language?

Come on. Let's not kid ourselves. Just because you have a fishfinder onboard doesnt mean you have the slightest clue what the controller is attempting to do, english only, or bilingual.

Obviously not. but let's not kid ourselves it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if pilots can understand what is going on around them it adds to the general safety! I am not stating that there will an enormous amount of accidents if atc uses two languages but it does make it safer if only one language is used. And no I obviously do not expect pilots to get out a whiteboard and plot other planes positions while in the air, they have TCAS for that! However on the ground in thick fogg it might not be a bad idea to keep an ear out for what planes around you are doing.

Example: If an aircraft is cleared for take off and another aircraft accidentally gets permission to cross the same runway the pilots in the plane taking off can understand that transmission and take appropriate action. (this has actually happened. If you want a specific example google one!)
 
EGGD
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting bj87 (Reply 11):
I think standardized phraseology could actually be even more important than the single language issue. People with bad English skills might have trouble understanding an air traffic controller with an atrocious accent. If you have standardized phrases it would not prevent confusion but would make it less likely to happen.

Of course, I think predominately this is a training issue rather than a regulatory one.

I have a note in my initial line training file for one flight that simply says 'No excuses for lazy R/T'. At the time I considered my r/t to be very good, but why do trainers not insist on such a high standard? There is no reason why they shouldn't and it is not a difficult solution to a potentially hazardous problem.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:11 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
You're inbound to a busy airport (somewhere like CDG or AMS). The terminal controller has 10 planes on the frequency and is transmitting every few seconds. You mean to tell me that you, one of those 10 planes on the freq, will have spacial awareness as to where all those other aircraft are, simply because they are all talking to the controller in the same language?

Come on. Let's not kid ourselves. Just because you have a fishfinder onboard doesnt mean you have the slightest clue what the controller is attempting to do, english only, or bilingual.

Hey, here's a question: how much time do you have flying airliners? In my 25+ years of doing it, I've learned an AMAZING amount about what to expect from ATC in any phase of flight, particularly at airports I visit frequently. I don't know where all the planes on the frequency are, but I don't have to. I normally CAN, however, figure out the arrival sequence and figure out where the traffic I am following is turning, and in general how to plan for the arrival. The comment "Let's not kid ourselves. Just because you have a fishfinder onboard doesnt mean you have the slightest clue what the controller is attempting to do" is perhaps the most misinformed statement I have ever seen on airliners.net. We don't know where all the targets are going: we don't have to; we normally DO have excellent awareness about where surrounding and preceding traffic is. Get on a jumpseat and take a few rides if you get the opportunity: you might learn a thing or two.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 3):
You would be surprised how much situational awareness there is on a two crew flight deck. Hearing ATC instructions meant for other aircraft is only one piece of the big puzzle. Just as we are tuned into listening up for our call sign we are also tuned into any other clearances given for our runway and filter out the rest.

Correct. If I am going to LAX and given the south complex, I care about others going to the south complex. I know the names of the fixes for the 24's and for the 25's; if I hear guys being given instructions and clearances for the opposite side then I filter that out. If I'm given a runway change I have to rebuild my SA by mentally discarding the aircraft going to the old runway, and now pay closer attention for the aircraft going to my newly assigned runway. More than one language makes this MUCH more difficult, if not impossible. I don't know of any professional pilots who DON'T attempt to build a mental picture of the traffic by listening up.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 6):
Quoting 26point2 (Reply 3):
You would be surprised how much situational awareness there is on a two crew flight deck

Are we talking about the same situational awareness where numerous times, flight crews are assigned an uninterrupted descent and still end up 10 nm final, 5000 ft above the glideslope... Is that the situational awareness you're talking about?

Then they ask for a quick 360, but the controller refuses, because he has 5 planes lined up behind him. And yet, the high flyer, who was on the same frequency all this time, failed to notice the other aircraft's positions.

Does that describe the situational awareness you're talking about?

Please, pilots are busy enough handling one aircraft, much less figuring out where the other 9 are on the frequency.

Are we talking about the same controllers that forget to turn us prior to crossing through the LOC? Why if you saw we were high didn't you say something earlier? Nobody is perfect,and most of the time everyone is up to speed and the system works well; to assume pilots are the only one who make mistakes is fallacious.

The point stands: our SA is not as good as yours relative to our proximity to other traffic: that's the reason you have a job. If you honestly believe that professional pilots in general have no inkling about what's going on around them, you are sorely mistaken.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 6):
Quoting 26point2 (Reply 3):
we are also tuned into any other clearances given for our runway and filter out the rest.

So by "filtering out the rest", you mean to say that none of those aircraft part of "the rest" have any direct impact on your safety?

That's a pretty bold statement to make, and exactly the point i was making. You can try and get the picture of the airspace the controller is working, but you'd be surprised to know how far that still is from the reality.

Considering pilots fly to hundreds of airports throughout their career, it is impossible to know what kind of procedures are applied at each airport.

Edit: Just food for thought.....

You do realize that 1000 ft above you, that could be another controllers airspace, and they might have an aircraft right above you, coming right at you at 500 kts, yet on another frequency !

Yes, of COURSE we realize there are vertical boundaries on airspace and they are on another frequency frequently. And your point is?

It is true that pilots fly to hundreds of airports in their careers, and sometimes in a year, but especially when flying in and out of hubs or to frequent destinations, we are far more familiar than you apparently realize about what to expect.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 7):
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 6):


Why do you watch a guy get so far behind he ends up 5000' above the GS? Surely this then makes your job more dificult to sort it out later. Wouldn't it be better for you and him if you suggested a descent?

As in life there are always a few exceptions. A few pilots are challenged by situational awareness more than the rest....just as the occasional controller struggles with his Superman Complex.

Good point. There are also last minute runway changes, sectors opening and closing, operating to unfamiliar airports, etc, that can dramatically decrease a pilot's SA. That's when it's even MORE important to be speaking one language.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
Quoting 26point2 (Reply 7):

Why do you watch a guy get so far behind he ends up 5000' above the GS? Surely this then makes your job more dificult to sort it out later. Wouldn't it be better for you and him if you suggested a descent?

Obviously. I was merely illustrating a point about situational awareness. Often we ask the pilot "sir, you're a bit high, are you gonna be alright?", and they still answer "yes", right down to when they need the 360 ! Pilot pride, i guess.

I wouldn't talk too much about pilot pride. The vast majority of times I have needed a 360 is because a controller kept me too high and fast and got me way too tight on the airport. If we need a 360 to get down we will ask. If you don't approve it, that's fine too; we'll just get vectors back around for another approach.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
Quoting 26point2 (Reply 7):
As in life there are always a few exceptions. A few pilots are challenged by situational awareness more than the rest....just as the occasional controller struggles with his Superman Complex.

I hate to say it, but piloting skills are becoming more and more weak as the years go by. Aircraft automations, Lack of proper training, not enough time actually flying the plane, you name it ! Just look at AF447, or Colgan 3407.

Lack of proper readbacks by pilots is now also a factor at play, and is 10 times more likely to kill someone than simply a controller talking in two languages. Yes, it is ATC's job to catch the bad readbacks, but there is one of me, and 10 of you on my frequency (actually double that, 20 !). You do the math.

All this to say that your situational awareness point is marginal at best. Plenty of other fish in the sea to sort out first that will make the skies much safer.

Really? Please cite a source documenting your assertion that "lack of proper readbacks by pilots is now also a factor at play, and is 10 times more likely to kill someone than simply a controller talking in two languages." Go ahead, we're waiting.... If we read it back wrong why didn't you catch it? That's YOUR job. And while there may be 20 of us on the frequency, you are sitting at a console in a comfy chair, while we are moving at high speed, dealing with weather, dealing with Flight Attendants, talking to the company, getting the ATIS, loading the FMC, briefing the approach, doing checklists, oh, and flying this complex piece of machinery by the way. There's no question your job has a high workload, nobody said otherwise; it's folly to believe that with the automated aircraft of today that we aren't busy flying the plane and that are skills are lax. We frequently have MUCH more going on than you know about too.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 9):
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
Just look at AF447, or Colgan 3407.

Can name plenty of examples in recent years where flight crews have acted diligently, thought outside the box and saved their aircraft... Pulling out random examples of pilot error doesn't prove that piloting skills have got worse. Even 20 years ago there were many more accidents, both due to pilot error and other factors, so saying skills have got worse simply isn't true. The TYPE of pilot error has changed with the current level of automation however, you're right on that point, and certainly more training is required as far as human/computer interfacing in cockpits goes.

Those are all excellent points; thank you bueb0g.

Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 2):
You're inbound to a busy airport (somewhere like CDG or AMS). The terminal controller has 10 planes on the frequency and is transmitting every few seconds. You mean to tell me that you, one of those 10 planes on the freq, will have spacial awareness as to where all those other aircraft are, simply because they are all talking to the controller in the same language?

Don't be ridiculous, that wasn't the point that the poster you quoted was making. Your opinion is based on a massive assumption that you and other Air Traffic Controllers are infallible, which incredibly you are not. As a result, it is always useful for us pilots to have access to any tools we can to maintain our situational awareness. The vast majority of the time everyone does a great job, but every once in a while and in particularly aggrevating circumstances (busy day with plenty of delays, bad weather, diversions?) there is a mistake and if that mistakes affects the safety of your own flight, you'll want to know about it. If I was on an approach in LVP's and I heard a controller accidentally clear an aircraft to line up and wait on the runway I'm about to land on, I am sure between myself and the Pilot Monitoring we would hear that instruction and take suitable steps to avoid it. Had the instruction been given in French, or any other languages (approved and not approved) would I pick it up? Less likely.

Exactly the relevant point. Well put, EGGD.

Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 6):
So by "filtering out the rest", you mean to say that none of those aircraft part of "the rest" have any direct impact on your safety?

Sounds pretty obvious, doesn't it? They aren't a factor, you can use the 'cocktail party effect' to pick out communications that may directly influence you, especially during times of low workload.

Again, exactly correct EGGD. I care more about the aircraft immediately surrounding me and heading for my same arrival runway than I do about aircraft checking on 40 miles away 20,000 feet above me. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
Lack of proper readbacks by pilots is now also a factor at play, and is 10 times more likely to kill someone than simply a controller talking in two languages. Yes, it is ATC's job to catch the bad readbacks, but there is one of me, and 10 of you on my frequency (actually double that, 20 !). You do the math.

Yes, that is an issue as well. It need's to be sorted, just like the use of standard phraseology and one single aviation language. Do you have a link to the study that showed it was exactly 10 times more likely?

My point (and question,) exactly!

Quoting bj87 (Reply 11):
Obviously not. but let's not kid ourselves it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if pilots can understand what is going on around them it adds to the general safety! I am not stating that there will an enormous amount of accidents if atc uses two languages but it does make it safer if only one language is used. And no I obviously do not expect pilots to get out a whiteboard and plot other planes positions while in the air, they have TCAS for that! However on the ground in thick fogg it might not be a bad idea to keep an ear out for what planes around you are doing.

Your last line is you best in a very good post, bj87. The point is that when using a single language, proximal aircraft have a much higher chance to grasp potential threats than if speaking in multiple languages. Thank you.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
It was still a factor, why take the risk?

I take that risk every day at work, and i'm pretty comfortable with it. So are the pilots on my frequency.

Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
Sounds pretty obvious, doesn't it? They aren't a factor, you can use the 'cocktail party effect' to pick out communications that may directly influence you, especially during times of low workload.

Again, you seem pretty sure of yourself. It gives you an illusion you know what is happening. If it's comfrot you're talking about, yes, it can make you feel comfortable.

Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
If I was on an approach in LVP's and I heard a controller accidentally clear an aircraft to line up and wait on the runway I'm about to land on, I am sure between myself and the Pilot Monitoring we would hear that instruction and take suitable steps to avoid it.
Quoting bj87 (Reply 11):
Example: If an aircraft is cleared for take off and another aircraft accidentally gets permission to cross the same runway the pilots in the plane taking off can understand that transmission and take appropriate action

Due to these type of incidents, that's why stop bars were created.

Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
Do you have a link to the study that showed it was exactly 10 times more likely?

Yes, but it is an internal SMS document at our company, highlighting the fact that bad readbacks are moving up the ladder and are becoming one of the main causes of incidents. Besides, can you prove the contrary !

Quoting bj87 (Reply 11):
If you had actually taken the time to carefully read what I wrote you would have seen that I said it ATTRIBUTED to the accident NOT CAUSED IT!!!! So I don't know why you are trying to point out something I clearly had already read and understood!!!

I did read what you said. what's wrong with saying it in a different manner, one that is more precise, i might add!

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
ALTF4
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:18 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 6):
Are we talking about the same situational awareness where numerous times, flight crews are assigned an uninterrupted descent and still end up 10 nm final, 5000 ft above the glideslope... Is that the situational awareness you're talking about?

Then they ask for a quick 360, but the controller refuses, because he has 5 planes lined up behind him. And yet, the high flyer, who was on the same frequency all this time, failed to notice the other aircraft's positions.

Does that describe the situational awareness you're talking about?

Please, pilots are busy enough handling one aircraft, much less figuring out where the other 9 are on the frequency.

Shall we pull out more anecdotal evidence? I was flying at my local airport the other day, and pulled up to hold short at the runway. Gulfstream was cleared to land, and I saw him, but I just let the tower know I was ready so he could clear me when everything was good. This was probably the 15th time around the pattern that day, every other time I announced holding short and ready, he cleared me right away. So, with the gulfstream on final, he said "NxxxxP cleared for takeoff, runway 27, left traffic". I immediately said "unable, gulfstream on final" and he immediately got back on and said not to move.

Would he have caught that? yes. But the point is, had it been a low ceiling and I had not been able to see the gulfstream and the controller was using a different language, I probably would have had half my plane onto the runway by that time and the gulfstream would be going around.

But I'm sure its my fault for having been immediately cleared 14 times prior and then not waiting on the 15th time around, eh?
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):
I take that risk every day at work, and i'm pretty comfortable with it. So are the pilots on my frequency.

Maybe they are, maybe they are not. Regardless, it makes sense in the aviation world to reduce risk as much as practicable. Eventually, through taking small risks we end up with the possibility of a big accident.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):
Again, you seem pretty sure of yourself. It gives you an illusion you know what is happening. If it's comfrot you're talking about, yes, it can make you feel comfortable.

No, not sure of ourselves, or anyone else. That is why we need as many tools at our disposal as we can so we can make the right decisions.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):
Due to these type of incidents, that's why stop bars were created.

It is one example and if you read the example again they aren't even relevant. If a controller mistakenly issues an incorrect clearance there is a reasonable chance that (s)he may also incorrectly extinguish the stop bars? My understanding is that stop bars are there to stop aircraft accidentally entering an active runway inadvertantly, which has nothing to do with communication anyway.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):
Yes, but it is an internal SMS document at our company, highlighting the fact that bad readbacks are moving up the ladder and are becoming one of the main causes of incidents. Besides, can you prove the contrary !


I'm well aware of the problems, I would just prefer an argument presented with reasonable facts rather than figures that have more than a whiff of artistic licence about them..

(edited for typo)

[Edited 2012-04-19 12:53:05]
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):
Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
It was still a factor, why take the risk?

I take that risk every day at work, and i'm pretty comfortable with it. So are the pilots on my frequency.

And you know the pilots on your frequency are comfortable, how exactly? Do you routinely survey them? It is a risk that is not necessary.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):
Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
Sounds pretty obvious, doesn't it? They aren't a factor, you can use the 'cocktail party effect' to pick out communications that may directly influence you, especially during times of low workload.

Again, you seem pretty sure of yourself. It gives you an illusion you know what is happening. If it's comfrot you're talking about, yes, it can make you feel comfortable.

It's pretty arrogant to believe that you know what our SA picture is. Have you even BEEN in an airline cockpit during flight? The reason we have TCAS is first to avoid collisions, and second to provide SA. While we don't have as much data available in the cockpit as you do (yet) that in no way means we have can't correlate our position with other aircraft observed on the TCAS (or out the window) while listening to ATC instructions and looking for reactions. It is far less illusion than you believe. We are pretty sure of ourselves most of the time; we've been doing this a while. If we aren't sure of what's going on, we listen more intently and ask ATC if necessary (which it normally isn't.)

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):
Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
If I was on an approach in LVP's and I heard a controller accidentally clear an aircraft to line up and wait on the runway I'm about to land on, I am sure between myself and the Pilot Monitoring we would hear that instruction and take suitable steps to avoid it.
Quoting bj87 (Reply 11):
Example: If an aircraft is cleared for take off and another aircraft accidentally gets permission to cross the same runway the pilots in the plane taking off can understand that transmission and take appropriate action

Due to these type of incidents, that's why stop bars were created.

Here's a question: Do all airports have stop bars? I'll spoil the surprise: No they don't.

I'm all in favor of stop bars, but the lower tech and more easily implemented solution is to be able to understand what other traffic is doing, which means speaking one language on frequency.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):
Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
Do you have a link to the study that showed it was exactly 10 times more likely?

Yes, but it is an internal SMS document at our company, highlighting the fact that bad readbacks are moving up the ladder and are becoming one of the main causes of incidents. Besides, can you prove the contrary !

He doesn't have to prove the contrary: it was not his undocumented assertion. I am not questioning that readback errors are significant safety problems, but don't make a quantified claim you can't support. Otherwise identify it as your opinion. Feel free to cite your source for the "10 times more likely" assertion at any time.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 15):
But I'm sure its my fault for having been immediately cleared 14 times prior and then not waiting on the 15th time around, eh?

I'm sure it is, ALTF4.  
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):
Get on a jumpseat and take a few rides if you get the opportunity: you might learn a thing or two.

Have plenty of times. Seems to me you need to spend more time in an ATC facility. you would then realize what we have to deal with. Dual languages is never a problem. What is a problem nowadays is bad readbacks by pilots.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 15):
I was flying at my local airport the other day, and pulled up to hold short at the runway. Gulfstream was cleared to land, and I saw him, but I just let the tower know I was ready so he could clear me when everything was good. This was probably the 15th time around the pattern that day, every other time I announced holding short and ready, he cleared me right away. So, with the gulfstream on final, he said "NxxxxP cleared for takeoff, runway 27, left traffic". I immediately said "unable, gulfstream on final" and he immediately got back on and said not to move.

Agreed. and good catch.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 17):
And you know the pilots on your frequency are comfortable, how exactly? Do you routinely survey them? It is a risk that is not necessary.

Because i've never had a pilot question my instructions or repeat an instruction i gave to another aircraft in another language. That's how.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 17):
t's pretty arrogant to believe that you know what our SA picture is. Have you even BEEN in an airline cockpit during flight?

It's not arrogant, unfortunately its the reality, and yes, i've been in a cockpit several times, with several different airlines, long haul and short haul, in flight, on final approach and in the sim. I know very well what goes on in the cockpit. We get annual refreshers that emphasize the priorites a pilot has ref. cockpit management and so on. Still doesn't change the fact that situational awareness is only as good as you think it is ! It's all a question of comfort. A pilot can be behind the ball due to several reasons (weather deviations, left too high by ATC, etc) and have zero situational awareness, and still be 100 % safe. Why, because a controller is there to make sure he gets on the ground safely, and this is done in one language or two, just as the regulations today permit.

If you don't like it, next time you're assigned a flight to dual language facilities, simply refuse the flight !

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 17):
Here's a question: Do all airports have stop bars? I'll spoil the surprise: No they don't.

The ones that need stop bars have them in place.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-04-19 13:39:26]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Pihero
Posts: 4196
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:36 pm

Exactly the sort of thread tha could go all over the place, as it already does.
In this , I'm both party and totally outside the scope of the subject
There is , though a very important mistake made by all English speakers here : that there is only one English.
Compare ATC in London with ATC in New York and you could be, for all intents and purposes in two different worlds.
That means that before we talk about the Japan Air pilot announcing him being at "frright rrlevelr trlree seven zerlro", we could ask ourselves what the ideal communication could be.
IMO, it should be :
- Clear and concise
- unambiguous
- following standard ICAO procedure
- Totally free of jingoisms, local slang, reference to local geographical features or VMC reporting points in an IFR control...
- taking into account that foreigners could require a slower rythm of talking instructions.

Then, and only then could we talk of an international language.
A few pilots have talked about SA and I agree that it is a great part of my job. Problem is I don't have it any more at JFK than at any place in China. As for the Europeans, it doesn't -take a lot to learn in Spanish or Portuguese the digits one to nine, key words like cleared flight level, heading, maintain... final... that's what ? Thirty words ?

In my experience, communication problems are very rare : those with a limited English would tend to stick to strict procedural ICAO English...What happens when the need is for more advanced vocabulary is beyond the scope of this thread.
Reminds me of that very young trainee at Kinshasa :
She'ds been giving us with the instructions the wind which was below three knots, and the QNH...
and then we called on final, and she came back with " XXX you're clear to land, the wind is 240 degrees... oh! my God ! there is no knot at all !"
Contrail designer
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 19):
A few pilots have talked about SA and I agree that it is a great part of my job. Problem is I don't have it any more at JFK than at any place in China. As for the Europeans, it doesn't -take a lot to learn in Spanish or Portuguese the digits one to nine, key words like cleared flight level, heading, maintain... final... that's what ? Thirty words ?

What are you talking about, PGNCS always has the picture at such busy airports ! Maybe he can give you a quick course on how to maintain SA in a hub airport  scared 

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):
It is true that pilots fly to hundreds of airports in their careers, and sometimes in a year, but especially when flying in and out of hubs or to frequent destinations, we are far more familiar than you apparently realize about what to expect.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-04-19 13:45:02]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Fabo
Posts: 1141
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:38 pm

The freakin feck.

Thenoflyzone, I really hope you are not a representative of general personality of ATCs in Canada, or elsewhere.

Quoting bj87 (Reply 11):
Btw wasn't standardized phraseology already introduced or is that only in the USA per FAA? I remember reading something about the "position and hold" vs " line up and wait" instructions.

It is introduced, and is in fact more thorough and stringent within ICAO/JAA rules area, compared to FAA rules.

The problems discussed phraseology wise are, more often than not, differencies between two systems. Like your example, position and hold is FAA, line up and wait is ICAO. The big problem in this regard used to be the term "holding position" used to describe position used by aircraft to wait before entering the runway. It was apparently just too similar to FAAs "position and hold", and American pilots sometimes mistakenly entered the runway. It has since been modified to "holding point" by ICAO. FAA equivalent is "hold short of" IIRC.

(I am not 100% sure on this, more like 97%. Small regional differences might also apply - not all countries apply ICAO rules and recommendations the same way and in same speed)
The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2289
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):
Correct. If I am going to LAX and given the south complex, I care about others going to the south complex. I know the names of the fixes for the 24's and for the 25's;

You do realize that pilots headed for the 24's are only a mile or two away from pilots headed to the 25's, whereas other aircraft headed for the 25's will be vectored 3 nm (maybe even more for wake) behind you. You thus have less separation with guys going on the 24's then guys going on the 25s as you are.

But hey, as long as you're happy with your SA !

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 13):
Yes, of COURSE we realize there are vertical boundaries on airspace and they are on another frequency frequently. And your point is?

If you cant understand the point i'm making, then there is no use continuing this discussion !

Quoting Fabo (Reply 21):
The freakin feck.

Thenoflyzone, I really hope you are not a representative of general personality of ATCs in Canada, or elsewhere.

I cant speak for anybody else, but i can guarantee you that at my facility, most controllers will share my opinion, since they provide ATC service in both english and french.

BTW, you do realize that we PROVIDE the service in a secondary language, we do not INITIATE it. Meaning if a pilot decides to have the service in french, we provide it. To this day, in my 10 years of ATC experience, i have yet to hear an english speaking pilot complain or feel uneasy about the french on the frequency.

Quite the contrary, some anglo's check in on the freq with a "bonjour" or "bonsoir", even though you can hear the heavy english accent in their voice and know that they cannot speak french fluently. It's quite nice to see pilots make the effort with the local language.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-04-19 15:11:21]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:43 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 22):
BTW, you do realize that we PROVIDE the service in a secondary language, we do not INITIATE it. Meaning if a pilot decides to have the service in french, we provide it. To this day, in my 10 years of ATC experience, i have yet to hear an english speaking pilot complain or feel uneasy about the french on the frequency.

Quite the contrary, some anglo's check in on the freq with a "bonjour" or "bonsoir", even though you can hear the heavy english accent in their voice and know that they cannot speak french fluently. It's quite nice to see pilots make the effort with the local language.

I agree with your second point, I do it regularly but when it comes to important details such as instructions and clearances I think they need to be clear, concise, and in the same language. The point is that although there is no harm in you providing a service to those who request it, it is the other pilots using your service that may not appreciate being 'kept out of the loop' and believe me, enough Captains I've flown with have something to say about it. They just never voice their concerns over the radio. In some cases I expect that doing so will have a negative effect anyway.
 
JRadier
Posts: 3943
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 18):
Dual languages is never a problem.

You do know that your argument here was refuted already with the CDG accident? While I see why in a lot of cases dual languages might be ok (I don't have enough experience to claim otherwise), your claim that it 'never' is a problem is obviously false!
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
Pihero
Posts: 4196
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:38 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 20):

What are you talking about, PGNCS always has the picture at such busy airports !

People have different experiences and different ways to cope with them.
Some pilots complain that they do not have SA at CDG because of the French...which is a bit strange when landing clearances are given while you're still at 2000 ft on the ILS and there are four airplanes ahead of you. It's not the language that robs you of your SA... it's the silence !

Quoting Fabo (Reply 21):

The problems discussed phraseology wise are, more often than not, differencies between two systems.

They go quite a long way beyond mere phraseology differences. The ICAO procedures, if applied fulfill the requirements I talked about earlier... but are not used in the US.
A recent event came with an aircraft message recorded as :" Emergency, smoke in the cockpit, roll trucks, please.".. to cut a short history, it took five minutes for the ATCO to send the emergency vehicles to the flight that had in fact landed. The emergency was due to fumes in the cabin... I tried to listen to the recording and couldn't make a single word apart from "cockpit".
In this case, the ATCO didn't know who was calling, so much that he believed it was a prank... Then another call from the flight announcing they'd landed and were evacuating on the runway... which comforted the ATCO in his belief that the calls were bogus.
Result was : an aircraft dead on one runway, with passengers evacuating, in fog in an airport which was still contihuing its operations, even on that particular runway... Had I been on that airport and on that frquency, I wouldn't have get a picture of the real situation.
Now where is the non-English exchange that causes accidents in this case ?
Contrail designer
 
HaveBlue
Posts: 2107
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:01 pm

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:11 am

Quoting Fabo (Reply 21):
Thenoflyzone, I really hope you are not a representative of general personality of ATCs in Canada, or elsewhere.

Me too Fabo, me too. One of my best freinds is a air traffic controller for Miami Center and while he has his pet peeves just as anyone at any job does, his remarks do not nearly smack of the arrogance and superiority complex shown by noflyzone... or I wouldn't be able to stand being around him. That being said I've met several of them and they are quite an affable and fun group.

 

As for the discussion while I don't think speaking in another language poses a threat necassarily, I do agree with those that like and feel more comfortable with the added information to a pilots SA by being able to understand all transmissions. The more pieces of the SA puzzle you have at your disposal, the better. Maybe the majority of the time it wouldn't change events one way or the other, but for the times it would and has it would be worth it.
Here Here for Severe Clear!
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:14 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 24):
your claim that it 'never' is a problem is obviously false!

You are correct. I meant to say that "dual languages has never been a problem for me or for the pilots on my frequency." And hopefully it will stay that way.

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 26):
As for the discussion while I don't think speaking in another language poses a threat necassarily, I do agree with those that like and feel more comfortable with the added information to a pilots SA by being able to understand all transmissions.

Comfort.

A word i've been saying throughout this thread (reply 14 and 18). SA brings pilots comfort. That , and only that, i agree with.
Comfort and safety, however, are two different things.

Bottom line, if speaking in two languages was that dangerous, it be banned by now. The mere fact that it is still allowed is proof enough that it is still a safe procedure and doesnt pose as much of a threat to safety as people on here think it does.

Pilots take a risk everyday when they board and aircraft for a flight. Does that mean they should stop flying? No.

So why say that dual languages in ATC should not be tolerated, when the number of incidents SOLELY blamed on it are slim to none.

The number of incidents blamed on poor ATC or poor piloting skills or procedures, however, has always been more of a factor for safety, and is one of the reasons for the establishment of SMS programs recently across the industry.

Lets put the focus where it should be ! No matter which language, properly trained personnel (ATC and pilots) should use proper phraseology in a clear and concise manner. That is what the industry should strive for, especially in countries where english isnt the first language.

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 26):
One of my best freinds is a air traffic controller for Miami Center and while he has his pet peeves just as anyone at any job does, his remarks do not nearly smack of the arrogance and superiority complex shown by noflyzone...

My remarks might smack of arrogance, because unlike your friend at Miami Center, I do control in dual languages, and so i take this discussion probably more to heart than anyone else. Whether you believe me or not, i do my job for one reason and one reason only, to provide for safe, orderly and expeditious control of air traffic. Safety IS my job. I've devoted the last 10 years of my life to it, and will gladly continue doing it for as long as i can. So that puts me in a better place than most to make certain comments that might seem arrogant to some, but clearly come from an implicated and informed background, especially concerning this topic !

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-04-19 20:37:46]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Pihero
Posts: 4196
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:28 am

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 26):
One of my best freinds is a air traffic controller for Miami Center

That center is not among my favourites and I'll never take it as a reference for good, strict procedures. The locals like it fine... but I'm not a local.

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 26):
I do agree with those that like and feel more comfortable with the added information to a pilots SA by being able to understand all transmissions.

Just a comment : I wrote that a total of some thirty words would get you most of the com traffic in a "foreign" country. My opinion is IF someone is that concerned about his/her situational awareness and safety, shouldn't he/she make the very slight and short effort to understand the local language ? I swear to you, it's useful in places like Madrid or Paris.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 27):
So that puts me in a better place than most to make certain comments that might seem arrogant to some, but clearly come from an implicated and informed background, especially concerning this topic !

I tend to agree with you, like most of the ATCOs here.
Contrail designer
 
bj87
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:26 am

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:44 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 17):
Here's a question: Do all airports have stop bars? I'll spoil the surprise: No they don't.

Okay, that made me chuckle   But it would be another great safety feature for all airports to have.

Quoting Fabo (Reply 21):
It is introduced, and is in fact more thorough and stringent within ICAO/JAA rules area, compared to FAA rules.
Quoting Fabo (Reply 21):
(I am not 100% sure on this, more like 97%. Small regional differences might also apply - not all countries apply ICAO rules and recommendations the same way and in same speed)

Thanks for the info and the short recap. And I'll take your word for it 97% certainty is good enough for me in this case  
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):
Due to these type of incidents, that's why stop bars were created.

I am curious. How does a stop bar stop anyone from accidentally getting a clearance to cross it?

Quoting EGGD (Reply 16):
It is one example and if you read the example again they aren't even relevant. If a controller mistakenly issues an incorrect clearance there is a reasonable chance that (s)he may also incorrectly extinguish the stop bars? My understanding is that stop bars are there to stop aircraft accidentally entering an active runway inadvertantly, which has nothing to do with communication anyway.

My point exactly.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):
I did read what you said. what's wrong with saying it in a different manner, one that is more precise, i might add!

First or all it is redundant and secondly I strongly got the sense you are trying to be a smart-ass to someone that doesn't spend that that much time posting on a.net! But hey, whatever floats your boat and gets you through the night!

Edit: changed layout

[Edited 2012-04-20 08:01:17]
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting bj87 (Reply 29):

I am curious. How does a stop bar stop anyone from accidentally getting a clearance to cross it?

Let me google that for you !

http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=how+airport+stop+bars+work

Quoting bj87 (Reply 29):
First or all it is redundant

Redundancy is a pilot's and ATC's best friend !

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-04-20 12:13:49]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
26point2
Posts: 814
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:52 am

People....Thenoflyzone is a fraud. Why would a legit ATCer have to spend so much time defending himself? Sure hope I never get into "his airspace".
 
NBGSkyGod
Posts: 810
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 7:30 am

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:48 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
What are you talking about.....ALL controllers have a superman complex !

First of all it's not a complex...we are superman.
Second, there is enough blame to go around as far as poor communications and poor situational awareness. The airport I work at has no radar coverage and thus no radar in the tower. Pilots routinely announce "bizjet123 is with you" this information does nothing for me. I now have to take time to extract all of the required information (position, altitude, runway assigned (the FIR doesn't always coordinate an operation to an inactive runway), and ATIS code). These are just English speaking pilots, we also see a lot of French Canadian, European, and Latin American Pilots, not to mention student pilots. Throw in a thick New England accent or a Texan drawl and we are off to the races with problematic outcomes from misunderstood instructions. Also there are the lax use of phraseology and local slang that all controllers are guilty of.
ICAO requires everyone to speak English, however it doesn't specify what variation of English, so the poor Slavic kid struggling with his English, or the guy who has lived in the Bronx his whole life, may have a hard time getting a foreigner to understand what he is trying to say, even though they are both speaking the same language.
Pilots are idots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
Dogbreath
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:49 am

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:52 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 30):
Quoting bj87 (Reply 29):

I am curious. How does a stop bar stop anyone from accidentally getting a clearance to cross it?

Let me google that for you !

http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=how+ai...+work

Don't worry bf87, he just doesn't get it. Though I'm not surprised reading the ramblings from post number 2.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 31):
People....Thenoflyzone is a fraud. Why would a legit ATCer have to spend so much time defending himself?

You may be right. Surely anyone involved with aviation that is committed to safe airspace operations would agree that effective communication is paramount to all concerned (not just ATC). Situational Awareness is one of the headline acts when talking CRM (Crew Resource Management). When ATC and local aircraft are speaking in languages other than English it doesn't take a rocket scientist to identify the cause of a lack of SA, and with that, CRM.
We can talk all day about how ATC don't make mistakes, and don't worry about SA, as ATC have it under control. Unless I'm mistaken ATC folk are still human beings, as are pilots, and we are designed to make mistakes. We mitigate those mistakes by effective CRM, and by the use of a single language and procedures. For what it's worth I only speak one language, and have had my fair share of incidents due to loss of SA by ATC speaking in a foreign language.
Truth, Honour, Loyalty
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:35 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 31):
People....Thenoflyzone is a fraud. Why would a legit ATCer have to spend so much time defending himself? Sure hope I never get into "his airspace".
Quoting dogbreath (Reply 33):

Said by people who have 0 RR (respect rating) !

But then again, i'm a fraud right. Maybe I manipulated people into giving me some form of credibility ! Or better yet, i created those profiles just to give myself some credibility !

LOL

Quoting dogbreath (Reply 33):
had my fair share of incidents due to loss of SA by ATC speaking in a foreign language.

Assuming they wouldn't have happened in a single language facility.

Quoting dogbreath (Reply 33):
We can talk all day about how ATC don't make mistakes

No one said ATC never make mistakes.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-04-21 05:55:44]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):

Interestingly, this thread was just posted on pprune. Whilst their initial questions are regarding the TCAS system, you can see how the use of a different language in communication does not help situations, especially when combined with what was most likely non-standard communication (chat..).

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/48309....html

btw, EGGD,

posted a reply to that thread. Seems to me in that incident as well, poor ATC procedures is mostly to blame, and had it been english only doesn't necessarily mean the TCAS RA wouldn't have kicked in.

(yes, am also a member of PPRUNE. Trying to infiltrate my fraudulent thoughts onto several forums...LOL)

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-04-21 09:25:04]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Pihero
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:58 pm

1/- I read the prune thread and I certazinly do not agree with the poster.
- The traffic was on TCAS. There certainly isn't a requirement to be visual ( as a matter of fact we are discouraged to try and match a TCAS target with a visual sighting ).
- If one is unhappy with the approach picture and unable to contact the ATCO, by all means, the safest thing to do is perform a go-around... Waiting for a TCAS resolution while the target has been monitored for a long time is, in my book, a total lack of SA, as SA, contrarily to what people believe is both knowledge and understanding of a highly dynamic situation.
- whether the controller's conversation was in English or French is totally irrelevant as the poster couldn't have managed to cut it... it certainly participated in the poster's ire !

If one looked at the ASN data base, and then at the contributary cause index "ATC & NAVIGATION
Language/communication problems, VFR flight in IMC, Wrong or misinterpreted instructions
,
one would find only since 1947 14 occurrences, of which 6 happened in the US... In my opinion, quite a few are missing as Avianca AV052 on 25/01/90 on which ATC and aircrews were not able to communicate a low fuel state, then the collision between a Saudi 747 and a Khazakstan IL76 in the Delhi area in which a careless ( IMO only ) mention of a level below the initial clearance caused the IL76 to descend into the 747 trajectory, certainly the Teneriffe collision and partly the MD x Short accident at CDG.

The conclusion is that double-language ATC isn't less safe than a total(English one... and then, we should define what English is .The one that's spoken in Dubai or London (my two favourite ATCs), or the one spoken with slang and regional colloquialisms basically all over the States ?
I also agree tha SA could be improved by the crews being able to understand all the radio traffic that's going on... I also gave some solutions... As a professional, my SA takes a beating when I fly the states' routes. The procedures are so alien I might as well be on my x-wing over Datooine. Starts with the weather: I'm used to the Metar and Taf codes... there, I need a booklet to translate terminal weather, with shortcuts like DNTN, which wasn't on my decode book and meant "downtown". .. Do you know that the North Atlantic Route Qualification requires a few days' course ?
So please, before you disparage anyone who dares to disagree with the quasi-unanimous assomption that everything is best in the US, there's a bloody whole wide world outside where people could be allowed to not understand something like "Birdy123 hazyorhide?", which I eventually understood as the local equivalent of the London's " Birdy123, say your flight conditions ".
Contrail designer
 
Aircellist
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:56 pm

The Aviation Safety Network's database shows a list of accidents attributed to ATC "wrong or misinterpreted instructions"

http://aviation-safety.net/database/dblist.php?Event=ANW

None is even remotely attributable to the use of another language then English... For what it's worth...
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:21 pm

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 32):
The airport I work at has no radar coverage and thus no radar in the tower. Pilots routinely announce "bizjet123 is with you" this information does nothing for me. I now have to take time to extract all of the required information (position, altitude, runway assigned

LOL.....Love the ILS 18 at your airport btw.

HAMMM BURGR FRYYS.....

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:22 am

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 37):
The Aviation Safety Network's database shows a list of accidents attributed to ATC "wrong or misinterpreted instructions"
Quoting Aircellist (Reply 37):
None is even remotely attributable to the use of another language then English... For what it's worth...

And yet, when i said that stuff like this is 10 times more likely to kill someone compared to dual languages, i got flamed, when in reality the figures would probably show that it is closer to 100 times more likely.

Yet, i'm the arrogant one. Ohh...and the fraud....Let's not forget that one !

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 32):
The airport I work at has no radar coverage and thus no radar in the tower.

The radars at BTV or ALB must give the enroute controllers at LEB some sort of radar coverage above 5000-6000 ft no? Although it is mountainous southeast of BTV and east of ALB, which could affect the quality of the radar coverage.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-04-21 17:32:53]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:45 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 39):
The radars at BTV or ALB must give the enroute controllers at LEB some sort of radar coverage above 5000-6000 ft no? Although it is mountainous southeast of BTV and east of ALB, which could affect the quality of the radar coverage

depending on the weather its between 3500 and 4500.
Pilots are idots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:08 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 27):
The number of incidents blamed on poor ATC or poor piloting skills or procedures, however, has always been more of a factor for safety, and is one of the reasons for the establishment of SMS programs recently across the industry.
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 34):
No one said ATC never make mistakes.

Nope, but ATC never pays the price. Pilot makes a mistake, pilot dies. ATC makes a mistake, pilot dies. Until you have as much skin in the game as we do, I simply cannot allow an ATC to try to fly the plane.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:10 am

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 40):
depending on the weather its between 3500 and 4500.

wow that low ! That's pretty good.

You guys should get a radar feed in the tower. It would give you guys a good idea where the inbounds are just before they coast off the screen. Better than nothing.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 41):
I simply cannot allow an ATC to try to fly the plane.

Hate to say it, because i'm probably gonna get flamed again, but here goes.......You do realize that's precisely what terminal controllers such as myself do right? In all intent and purposes, we basically fly the plane for you, especially at airports with no STAR's where radar vectors are required onto final. I take your plane 30nm outside my airport, and place you on final. I fly your plane. Millions of pilots trust the system. You should too, or else you will have a very short career.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-04-21 20:36:42]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
HaveBlue
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:14 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 34):
Said by people who have 0 RR (respect rating) !

Let me get this straight.. a professional air traffic controller is basing their real life respect on the respect rating of people on an internet aviation forum? Tell me it aint so.

[Edited 2012-04-21 21:15:35]
Here Here for Severe Clear!
 
HaveBlue
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:20 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 42):
u do realize that's precisely what terminal controllers such as myself do right? In all intent and purposes, we basically fly the plane for you, especially at airports with no STAR's where radar vectors are required onto final. I take your plane 30nm outside my airport, and place you on final. I

That sentence shows your total ignorance, and also betrays you. In reality you are not capable of flying that airplane at all, much less to a successful landing. Yet your blatant arrogant assumptions by your statements say you do. You do not. The hundreds or thousands of hours of an actual pilot flying to be able to do what you so easily and erroneously say you can do takes a lot of training and skill, and yet you dismiss it as if you yourself are in control of the aircraft. Your ego is out of control. You are an aid to a pilot but you seem to have the God complex. To be fair neither do I presume a pilot could do your job. I have friends in both feilds. Yet those I respect in either never exhibit the grand overblown superman complex you seem to suffer from. I feel for you.
Here Here for Severe Clear!
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:22 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 42):
Hate to say it, because i'm probably gonna get flamed again, but here goes.......You do realize that's precisely what terminal controllers such as myself do right? In all intent and purposes, we basically fly the plane for you, especially at airports with no STAR's where radar vectors are required onto final. I take your plane 30nm outside my airport, and place you on final. I fly your plane. Millions of pilots trust the system. You should too, or else you will have a very short career.

Yup, proves my point exactly. Arrogant ATC personnel who think that because they can memorize one little section of air in the world, and memorize how fast airplanes fly, they know it all.

Again, I mess up, I die. You mess up, I die. Until there is equal skin in the game, everything you do is merely a suggestion.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:42 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 45):
Again, I mess up, I die. You mess up, I die. Until there is equal skin in the game, everything you do is merely a suggestion.

hmmm.....ATS...Air Traffic Suggestor......or is it suggestioner.......either way, i'm pretty sure that's not what my company pays me to do, to suggest separation.

But hey, if that's what you guys want every controller in the world to be, a guy who suggests separation standards, maybe you guys can send an e-mail to ICAO and suggest your new way of doing things.

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 44):
Yet those I respect in either never exhibit the grand overblown superman complex you seem to suffer from. I feel for you.
Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 44):
God complex

God or Superman....which one is it. Surely i can't be both, can I

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 43):
Let me get this straight.. a professional air traffic controller is basing their real life respect on the respect rating of people on an internet aviation forum? Tell me it aint so.

No no no....a professional Air Traffic suggestor....apparently....can one of those even be called professional......Nah...i dont think so. I guess i'm not professional then.....we should be called..."the sometimes moderately accurate single language air traffic suggestors".

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-04-21 22:27:53]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
HaveBlue
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:48 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 46):
God or Superman....which is one is it. Surely i can't be both, can I

You can't fly an airplane, so you are neither. You just suffer from wishing you could.  
Here Here for Severe Clear!
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Incidents/Accidents Due Non-English ATC Exchanges?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:00 am

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 47):
so you are neither

really...i could have sworn....LOL

I mean, if more than one person on here thinks so, it must be true.   

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 41):
Pilot makes a mistake, pilot dies. ATC makes a mistake, pilot dies

All true, (although that Swiss controller who was killed wouldn't agree with you right now) but here's the kicker.....

If ATC weren't there, you'd probably still die.

But enough already with all this dying business....I SUGGEST we move on....  
But hey, i'm only suggesting remember. You can do whatever you want. You're in control. Just do me a favor, try not to die.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-04-21 22:29:11]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!

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