User avatar
747classic
Topic Author
Posts: 1945
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Thu May 17, 2012 10:58 am

Is there some news about the progress at the GEnx-2B67 as installed at the 747-8 series ? Any good news about restoring the TSFC-shortfall on this engine will benefit the present 747-8 sales effort by Boeing.

According one of the latest in-depth articles (Nov. 2011) about this engine upgrade package the following was mentioned :

"GE has begun manufacturing the hardware meant to demonstrate the -2B’s single PIP, expected to go to test in February or March next year and fly on the company’s Boeing 747 test bed during the third quarter. GE expects FAR Part 33 certification in April 2013 and FAR Part 25 approval in October 2013.
GE expects the -2B’s PIP to result in a 1.7- to 2-percent gain in fuel-burn efficiency".
See : http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...g-hard-meet-genx-fuel-burn-targets

It's now May 2012, the engine must have been tested on the test bench , any results ?
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Thu May 17, 2012 12:13 pm

How far off is the fuelburn? If they get a 2% improvement with the PIP where is it after? The goal should be on spec or better?

If they get this engine right, it might just lure Airbus to re engine the A330..But that would need more thrust?!
 
User avatar
747classic
Topic Author
Posts: 1945
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Thu May 17, 2012 1:33 pm

- Actual TSFC shortfall of the GEnx-2B is approx. 2,7 % .
- The 747-8F aerodynamic performance is 1% better than specification.
- Expected gain of PIP is 1,7-2,0 %.

After implementation of the PIP both the 747-8F and -8I will be on or even slightly better than spec. The engine is however still 0,7-1,0 % below spec.

The 747-8 OEW overweight issue is temporally solved by increasing all maximum operating weights, after the discovery of additional structural margin in the load-survey tests. If the weight saving program is successfully finished the payload -range will be increased even further (above spec.)

Quoting sweair (Reply 1):
If they get this engine right, it might just lure Airbus to re engine the A330..But that would need more thrust?!

The thrust of the GEnx-2B can be increased (max . 70.000 lbs ??) if the booster stage is improved/changed like is done at the PIP2 of the 787 engine (GEnx-1B) as mentioned in the linked article in the first posting of this thread.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
ferpe
Posts: 2651
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:44 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Thu May 17, 2012 2:51 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 2):
If the weight saving program is successfully finished the payload -range will be increased even further (above spec.)

So where is todays delivered frame, what was the original spec and where would we land? I have 7700nm at spec Pax+Bags right now, OK?
Non French in France
 
ferpe
Posts: 2651
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:44 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Thu May 17, 2012 3:03 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 2):
- Actual TSFC shortfall of the GEnx-2B is approx. 2,7 % .

Where do you have the -2B spec TSFC vs the -1B original spec? I have a notion of the -1B spec saying 0.53 at best FL (390), where would the -2B be then?
Non French in France
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Thu May 17, 2012 4:17 pm

Could the A330 hang the GenX2b off its wing without problem? Or does it need a smaller fan?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22927
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Thu May 17, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 4):
Where would the -2B be then?

Not sure where the data is from, but I have an SFC value of .261.



Quoting sweair (Reply 5):
Could the A330 hang the GenX2b off its wing without problem? Or does it need a smaller fan?

The GEnx2B has a 104" fan. The CF6-80E for the A330 has a 96" fan. Engine clearance on the A330-300 is between 34 and 37 inches (depending on the engine model).
 
User avatar
747classic
Topic Author
Posts: 1945
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Thu May 17, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
If the weight saving program is successfully finished the payload -range will be increased even further (above spec.)
So where is todays delivered frame, what was the original spec and where would we land? I have 7700nm at spec Pax Bags right now, OK?

Initial aircraft are 2.3-2.7 tonnes (5,000-6,000 lbs) overweight since the revised wing design after 2005.
Target (2008 estimate) is 8000nm with 487 pax + bags.
747-8I -Payload-range -2008

Weight saving target is about 5000 lbs.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 4):
Where do you have the -2B spec TSFC vs the -1B original spec? I have a notion of the -1B spec saying 0.53 at best FL (390), where would the -2B be then?

I only have the shortfall, not the exact TSFC figures. General Electric (GE) normally declines to comment on the specific fuel consumption (SFC) data on its engine, citing company policy on not to release SFC information on its products.
In following article a (target)TSFC of the GEnx-2B engine on the 747-8 is noted as 0.274 lb/lbt/hr :
http://www.orientinsight.com/2011/09...-be-a-highly-efficient-derivative/
See also : http://aeroturbopower.blogspot.com/2...idebody-engine-sfc-comparison.html

[Edited 2012-05-17 11:17:04]
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22927
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Thu May 17, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 3):
So where is todays delivered frame, what was the original spec and where would we land?

From the June 2010 ACAP, range at MZFW was originally 6250nm. That has now shrunk to 5900nm, though MZFW and MSP have both risen a good bit.

Using the December 2011 ACAP, at the same MZFW as June 2010 (640,000 pounds), range is about 6150nm.
 
ferpe
Posts: 2651
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:44 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Thu May 17, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 7):
In following article a (target)TSFC of the GEnx-2B engine on the 747-8 is noted as 0.274 lb/lbt/hr :

Thanks for the payload-range chart and for the range info Stitch. Any TSFC below 0.3 is for static thrust, ie lineup on runway at full TO thrust. Cruise SFCs are always worse and lie for the present engines between 0.5 -- 0.6 .

OK, then I stick to my previous figures (about 0.54 for the -2B )
Non French in France
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Thu May 17, 2012 8:08 pm

Ferpe, what do you think of a A330 based A310 sized 757 replacement? Hang the Genx 2b on it, range would only have to be TATL capable. There will be a huge gap from A321neo /739 max up to 788 and 358 even worse.

As I understand the A310 had the same cross section as the 330? Would it be possible to build a middle range on the 330 frame, wings would be a problem but engines would be the same as 748, maybe de rated though. OEW 70-80t..

There is a niche or a gap that will be needed to fill imo, a gap from A321 OEW to 788 OEW, sure 767 and A332 will fly for a while yet, but in 10 years time? 240 seats and maximum 4500nm ranges..
 
ferpe
Posts: 2651
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:44 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Thu May 17, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 10):
Ferpe, what do you think of a A330 based A310 sized 757 replacement?

I think it exist already, you typically see aircrafts sizes in 30 seat increments, the 321/MAX9 are 210-220 planes, the 788 is a 220-240 plane, from 260 seats the 358 cuts in. The 788 already have the better of the GEnx engines, it is a frame in very high rate production = low building cost down the line and it will get it's OEW and performance tuned to an optimum, there is some 1000 frames or more to spread those continuous engineering costs on.

It is a very modern and forward looking design so anything that shall compete with it has to be top notch, a warmed over 310 with GEnx engines is not.

Airbus seems to have seeded this space to Boeing, they will focus on the 220- and 250+ space it seems letting Boeing play alone in between.
Non French in France
 
sunrisevalley
Posts: 4949
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:26 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Fri May 18, 2012 2:12 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
Using the December 2011 ACAP, at the same MZFW as June 2010 (640,000 pounds), range is about 6150nm.

I believe I read ( but can't remember where) that the Dec 2011 ACAP L/R table was based on a "normalised" OEW , that is what the OEW is planned to be after the present 5 to 6K pounds over weight is removed.
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Fri May 18, 2012 9:10 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 11):
Airbus seems to have seeded this space to Boeing, they will focus on the 220- and 250+ space it seems letting Boeing play alone in between.

I just had the idea when I looked at the A310, 240 seats and one model had TATL range, IMO a perfect middle range shuttle aircraft, if it could be done in a modern form. 2-4-2 is a nice layout for TATL trips. If it was aimed at below 4500nm trips I think it would find plenty of customers, we never know how much fuel will cost in 10 years time. If 80t can fly 240 people it should be cheaper than 260 seats in 112t 788.

Anyway I like to wonder off in wild ideas, not too serious.
 
ferpe
Posts: 2651
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:44 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Fri May 18, 2012 10:48 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 13):
If 80t can fly 240 people it should be cheaper than 260 seats in 112t 788.


Of course you have a point here, question is how much of that was engines/pylons that did not weigh to much at the time because of low BPR and PR, you can't get the low TSFC without these investments.
Non French in France
 
User avatar
747classic
Topic Author
Posts: 1945
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Fri May 18, 2012 12:58 pm

We are drifting a little bit off topic.
Repeated question : Is there some progress in the development of the PIP of the GEnx-2B ?

I found this video (by Drewski2112) of the GE 747-100 engine test aircraft , landing at BFI at May 17. In the number 2 position is AFAIK still a GEnx-1B/PIP2 installed.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/smartjunco/7219426242/in/photostream

Conseq the GEnx-2B/PIP engine must be still at the test bench and is scheduled to start flight testing in July 2012.

[Edited 2012-05-18 05:59:24]
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Sat May 19, 2012 3:05 pm

There was talk about a third PIP for the 787s engine that would trickle down to the 2b as well, cant remember where I read it though.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22927
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Sat May 19, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 16):
There was talk about a third PIP for the 787s engine that would trickle down to the 2b as well, cant remember where I read it though.

The GEnx2B already has many of the components GE developed for PiP1 and PiP2 on the GEnx1B. PiP2 for the GEnx1B is scheduled to be installed on 787s towards the end of the year.

As such, I am not sure if the GEnx2B's first PiP will be unique to it, or will include updates slated for what could become PiP3 on the GEnx1B.

[Edited 2012-05-19 08:56:59]
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Sat May 19, 2012 4:53 pm

I think GE could have more sales from this engine, a bit too late but the C5 re engine could be doable, AN124.. Airbus 330 family, a derated version for any future middle range wb or nb.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22927
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Sat May 19, 2012 6:35 pm

GE seems to want a very strong RoI on any engine program they enter into, which is understandable considering how expensive these programs are. As such, I don't really see them interested in a pure re-engine option and would prefer to also have a healthy new-build program.

I do not share the enthusiastic prospects some do for what an A330 re-engine would do for future sales. I believe the A330's future will trend along the lines of the 767 - mostly freighter orders with some top-up passenger orders for large operators. As such, the sales figures are too low to support a new engine option.

[Edited 2012-05-19 11:36:17]
 
jetlife2
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:32 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Sat May 19, 2012 6:42 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 18):
C5 re engine could be doable

GE has already re-engined the C5 with the CF6-80C2, also known as C5 RERP. This adds thrust, climb rate, payload and dramatic fuel burn benefit. These installations are in process. No likelihood of another re-engine of the C5.
My views are not necessarily the views of the GE Company
 
User avatar
747classic
Topic Author
Posts: 1945
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:19 pm

The schedule, mentioned in the thread starter, for the GEnX-2B was FAR Part 33 certification in April 2013 and FAR Part 25 approval in October 2013.

We are now in April 2013 and the following questions can be asked :

- Any news about the progress of the GEnx-2B PIP certification ?

- Does the grounding of the 787 (effectively arresting the tests with the GEnx1B/PIP2) effect the the GEnx -2B/PIP certification ?

- Have the GEnx-2B/PIP test flights aboard the GE-test aircraft (at the 747-100 ?) already started ?
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
User avatar
747classic
Topic Author
Posts: 1945
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:57 pm

According the following article of December 2012 about the GEnx-1B PIP 1 and 2 program, the GEnx-2B PIP certification had already slipped into mid 2013 :
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...genx-1b-boeing-787-slips-next-year

Additional to this delay : the prolonged grounding of the 787, effectively arresting the tests for engine/airframe certification (FAR part 25) of the preceding GEnx1B/PIP2, could have a negative effect on the time line of the GEnx-2B/PIP certification.

AFAIK no GEnx-2B PIP test flights have been performed by any of the two General Electric testbeds up to now.

Additional question :

- Will the GEnx-2B PIP test flights be performed by N747GE (747-121, L/N16) ? See video of the test of the original GEnx-2B : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=995i8v28QEU

- Or by the ex. JAL B744, earmarked to become the new engine testbed - N747GF ?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © ColourFuLL



[Edited 2013-04-08 07:49:18]
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
ferpe
Posts: 2651
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:44 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:35 pm

Non French in France
 
User avatar
747classic
Topic Author
Posts: 1945
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

RE: Any News About The GEnx-2B PIP?

Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:01 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 23):
To be certified by mid summer:

Thanks Bjorn,
The linked article answers a lot of questions.
I will add it to the Official 747-8 flight tracking and Production thread Official 747-8 Flight Tracking & Production #12 (by wilco737 Apr 4 2013 in Civil Aviation) in Civil aviation.

Regards,
Peter.

[Edited 2013-04-16 10:05:45]
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests