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HAWK21M
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EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:29 am

Will EFB completely remove all paper from the flight deck or will a backup hardcopy still be needed.
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Starlionblue
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:12 pm

I think that eventually you will need no hard copy. If you look at the failure case with two EFBs, you'd need both to fail, plus comms with ground staff to fail. Seems pretty unlikely.
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tdscanuck
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Thread starter):
Will EFB completely remove all paper from the flight deck or will a backup hardcopy still be needed.

It all depends on the airlines. I believe the regulators are OK with it (you just need sufficient redundancy, not explicitly hard copy). I know airlines that have EFB + iPad as independant redundant backups and they seem to do fine without paper.

A couple of pieces might never go away just because of how they're transmitted...passenger manifest from the gate agent, final weight manifest, etc. Going paperless on those might not make sense. Going paperless on charts and manuals makes huge sense.

Tom.
 
pilotpip
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:51 pm

Our airline has been working towards paperless for as long as I've been there. First with an EFB system that was scrapped, now moving to e-readers and eventually ipads for our charts and manuals. In every iteration, regulatory agencies have required some sort of "manual" reversion. We have to have a set of current charts/manuals. I would imagine this will always be the case. Sometimes it's faster to look something up in a physical version of it versus electronic then there's always the issue of "what if you lose the system powering the electronic thingy?"
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Starlionblue
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:20 pm

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 3):
Sometimes it's faster to look something up in a physical version of it versus electronic

Absolutely. But this also assumes ereaders and tablets will not evolve. If (when) we get electronic paper that can be folded and put in a pocket, it may become as easy to use as paper.

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 3):
there's always the issue of "what if you lose the system powering the electronic thingy?"

ereaders have battery lives measured in weeks and are very simple in operation (very small risk of malfunction). Tablets used for reading also have quite long battery lives as these things go. Carry two tablets and an ereader and you're doing pretty well. And if you lose all that you still have radios and datalink to talk to ground engineers.
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CM
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:40 pm

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 3):
Our airline has been working towards paperless for as long as I've been there.

As have a number of operators. Someone from SQ could probably help on this topic; I believe they went full paperless for PIREPs and maintenance logs some time ago.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:40 am

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 3):
regulatory agencies have required some sort of "manual" reversion.

Exactly the problem.if hardcopy is still carried on board,then the purpose of weight saved & the use of the EFB/E-reader/i-pad is defeated.
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:09 am

Do embedded EFBs (777/A380) have some sort of isolation or battery power for an hour or so in the event of electrical failure? You wouldn't want your limited RAT power going towards the EFB while you may still need them.

I would think that 2 embedded EFB's and 2 iPads would provide sufficient redundancy that hard copies wouldn't be necessary. The chances of all of them failing at the same time would be pretty slim.

As a side note, how much do paper manuals and charts weight and how much room do they take up?
 
CM
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 7):
The chances of all of them failing at the same time would be pretty slim.

To my knowledge, no regulator has entertained the idea of a fully paperless operation where the records remained solely onboard for even one flight. One of the primary concerns has been having an electronic record of the last maintenance pformed on an aircraft lost if the aircraft suffers an accident on its next leg. A major focus of true paperless operations has been to ensure a redundant ground-based duplicate of the electronic record is made the instant the airplane receives its mx release. As such, this type of operation relies heavily on terminal wireless, satellite broadband, cellular modem, or other methods of connectivity which can function at the gate.
 
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):

ereaders have battery lives measured in weeks and are very simple in operation (very small risk of malfunction). Tablets used for reading also have quite long battery lives as these things go. Carry two tablets and an ereader and you're doing pretty well. And if you lose all that you still have radios and datalink to talk to ground engineers.

You're absolutely correct. However we're talking about government agencies that create red tape. They have dozens of people sitting there trying to figure out every possible scenario. That's why I have to know 4 engine recip alternate rules to take my ATP written despite the fact that I will never fly a 4 engine recip in the 121 world.
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Starlionblue
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:34 am

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 9):
You're absolutely correct. However we're talking about government agencies that create red tape.

Yeah sorry. I had forgotten this was the primary mission of government agencies. 
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tdscanuck
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 7):

Do embedded EFBs (777/A380) have some sort of isolation or battery power for an hour or so in the event of electrical failure? You wouldn't want your limited RAT power going towards the EFB while you may still need them.

EFB is typically on the instrument bus, so it stays functional on RAT power. Why wouldn't you want RAT power going there? The RAT is sized to the equipment it needs to power, not the other way around.

Tom.
 
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:48 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 11):
EFB is typically on the instrument bus, so it stays functional on RAT power. Why wouldn't you want RAT power going there? The RAT is sized to the equipment it needs to power, not the other way around.

My guess is also that the EFB uses only a tiny bit of power compared to all the other stuff the RAT has to keep going. We're probably talking tens of watts. What does a hydraulic pump need?
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MD11Engineer
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:21 pm

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 9):
You're absolutely correct. However we're talking about government agencies that create red tape. They have dozens of people sitting there trying to figure out every possible scenario. That's why I have to know 4 engine recip alternate rules to take my ATP written despite the fact that I will never fly a 4 engine recip in the 121 world.

It is not just governments producing red tape. In today´s time of micromanagement and real time control, everybody who calls himseldf manager will produce more report and other forms for his subordinates to fill in to cover all bases for himself.

E.g. I wonder how we did aircraft maintenace back 30 years ago, when there were no mobile phones or email computers, and all equipment a line station would have was a landline telephone, a microfilm read / printer for the manuals and maybe a teletype for SITA messages (later a fax macine was added as well).
Today you spend more time on writing reports to justify you decisions than on actual work.

Jan
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HAWK21M
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:50 am

Quoting CM (Reply 8):
One of the primary concerns has been having an electronic record of the last maintenance pformed on an aircraft lost if the aircraft suffers an accident on its next leg. A

Wouldn't those records be on the ground.....with Mainenance.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):

Today you spend more time on writing reports to justify you decisions than on actual work.

True Nowadays its approx 30-40% time of the job spend in completing paperwork with references....
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CM
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:46 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 14):
Wouldn't those records be on the ground.....with Mainenance.

No. This would be counterproductive in an effort to eliminate paperwork.

PIREPs are electronic... in the EFB.

Maintenance Logbook is electronic... in the EFB.

Maintenance release is electronic... in the EFB.

These systems are fully functional and being delivered today. The obstacle has been convincing the regulators to make them a legal means of record keeping.
 
nasula
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:56 am

Quoting CM (Reply 15):
PIREPs are electronic... in the EFB.

Maintenance Logbook is electronic... in the EFB.

Maintenance release is electronic... in the EFB.

A telecoms engineer here asking a (possibly) stupid question: Why can't these be copied to the maintenance computers on the ground during maintenance and release of the aircraft?

That way you would have a copy on the ground with the maintenance organisation in the event of the aircraft crashing and destroying the EFB.

What am I missing here?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:00 am

Quoting nasula (Reply 16):
A telecoms engineer here asking a (possibly) stupid question: Why can't these be copied to the maintenance computers on the ground during maintenance and release of the aircraft?

That way you would have a copy on the ground with the maintenance organisation in the event of the aircraft crashing and destroying the EFB.

What am I missing here?

I agree.

In any case how is an EPB being destroyed in a crash different from a DTFB (Dead Tree Flight Bag) being destroyed in a crash.


But I think I can answer the question. Regulatory authorities are very conservative and this stuff has come along very fast.
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HAWK21M
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:28 am

Quoting CM (Reply 15):
Quoting nasula (Reply 16):
Why can't these be copied to the maintenance computers on the ground during maintenance and release of the aircraft

Exactly.....There has to be a copy on the ground....even components replaced on an Aircraft dont travel on that aircraft as cargo on same flight.
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JRadier
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:34 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):
Exactly.....There has to be a copy on the ground....even components replaced on an Aircraft dont travel on that aircraft as cargo on same flight.

I have certainly seen this happen and would say this is not an uncommon occurance at AOG stituations at outstations. That said, most of my time has not been directly involved in maintenance but elsewhere in the organization.
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CM
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:54 pm

Quote:
nasula
Quote:
Starlionblue
Quote:
HAWK21M

You're all exactly right. The basic requirement of the ELB system is to replace all the functionality of paper logs today, improve on some aspects, and eliminate paper in the process.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):
Exactly.....There has to be a copy on the ground
Quoting nasula (Reply 16):
Why can't these be copied to the maintenance computers on the ground during maintenance and release of the aircraft?

This is the way ELB systems are designed to work; as electronic records are created on the airplane, they are pushed real-time to the ground via gatelink, cell modem, or other ground-based connection. The squawks are already doing this, of course, via ACARS or other airborne means.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
In any case how is an EPB being destroyed in a crash different from a DTFB (Dead Tree Flight Bag) being destroyed in a crash.

No different. This is an area where the regulators see potential for ELB to be superior to today's paper logs. Hence the real-time to ground requirement. This gets complicated when the EFB or ELB function, or perhaps your TWLU gatelink connection is inop and on the MEL.

PS: DTFB.... I like it! 
.
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
But I think I can answer the question. Regulatory authorities are very conservative and this stuff has come along very fast.


Indeed. But mostly I agree with the stance they are taking. Being as good as paper was not quite good enough for them and they are squeezing some new and valuable capability out of the ELB by levying some added requirements onto the electronic logbook designs.

Incidentally, I heard recently from a big German A380 operator the A380 ELB function is not active due to some regulatory concern. Does anyone know if this is true? If so, I believe it means the 777 and 787 are the only aircraft with a usable ELB function. Whatever the case, ELBs have proven extraordinarily difficult to get approval to use under any given airlines AOC.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 19):
I have certainly seen this happen and would say this is not an uncommon occurance at AOG stituations at outstations. That said, most of my time has not been directly involved in maintenance but elsewhere in the organization.

Even post rectification,not only the u/s components but also the paperwork travels in another flight but not on the same aircraft post Mx to cater for an event which could lose all proof.
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yeelep
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):

Just because that happens at your airline, don't assume it happens at all others. I've been on numerous AOG field trips where the repaired plane is repositioned back to our main hub with all replaced parts, tools, unentered paperwork and mechanics/inspectors on board.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:45 pm

Quoting yeelep (Reply 22):
Just because that happens at your airline, don't assume it happens at all others. I've been on numerous AOG field trips where the repaired plane is repositioned back to our main hub with all replaced parts, tools, unentered paperwork and mechanics/inspectors on board.

Its not about the Airline.....Its about Regulatory.What happens when the Same Aircraft post rectification has an event that the Paperwork & components carried on board as cargo are destroyed.
what does the FAA say then......
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planemaker
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
If you look at the failure case with two EFBs, you'd need both to fail, plus comms with ground staff to fail. Seems pretty unlikely.

Not to mention all the pax tablets (or smart phones on board).  

I say this half joking but we are talking about the future and if you look at what is already available...

http://iflytools.com/images/29259400.jpg

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
Absolutely. But this also assumes ereaders and tablets will not evolve. If (when) we get electronic paper that can be folded and put in a pocket, it may become as easy to use as paper.

Coming closer and closer...

Quote:
With the launch of the aptly-named Flex ONE, Wexler is first to commercially launch a flexible ereader based on LG's Electronic Paper Display (EPD) technology. Wexler additionally claims that the Flex ONE is the thinnest and lightest ereader in the world. Weighing in at a mere 110-g (3.9-oz), the 4-mm (0.16-in) thick ereader delivers on LG's promise that EPD-based products would follow soon after the technology was announced.
Quoting pilotpip (Reply 9):
However we're talking about government agencies that create red tape.

Due to the accelerating rate of innovation and progress, technology is blowing past government attempts to keep up with it.

Quoting yeelep (Reply 22):
Just because that happens at your airline, don't assume it happens at all others. I've been on numerous AOG field trips where the repaired plane is repositioned back to our main hub with all replaced parts, tools, unentered paperwork and mechanics/inspectors on board.

As someone already noted, we already have real-time data monitoring... and it is only going to increase exponentially. We will eventually get to the point where we will know when a part is going to fail well before it does and will be able to schedule replacement where and when it is most economic and convenient.
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stratosphere
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
I think that eventually you will need no hard copy. If you look at the failure case with two EFBs, you'd need both to fail, plus comms with ground staff to fail. Seems pretty unlikely.



Tact Is For People Who Aren't Witty Enough To Be Sarcastic

Unlikely?...Not hardly...My airlines EFB's totally suck and spend most of their existance on MEL. It is not uncommon to see both Capt's and F/O's EFB on deferral. I don't see paper going away anytime soon at my carrier.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: EFB Eliminating Paperwork

Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:32 pm

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 25):
My airlines EFB's totally suck and spend most of their existance on MEL. It is not uncommon to see both Capt's and F/O's EFB on deferral. I don't see paper going away anytime soon at my carrier.

Well, if the EFBs suck then that is the problem. Not that they are EFBs.

I do feel for you. Few things are more frustrating than when a supposedly reliable and simple piece of electronics doesn't want to work.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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