celestar
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Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:00 am

Boeing B777 family is a great sales success. The first B777-300 was designed to replace B747-200 in mid to short haul flight. What was the saving from this replacement in terms of fuel, roughly speaking? B777-300 seems to be sold mostly in Asian carrier, and for the last ten years, the model that is selling well is the ER or the LR model. How much of percentage, up to now, for the total sales of 777 family is the regular 300 version vs the ER version? Do we agree that B777-200 non-ER version is not a great sales success? Why? I tend to think it is not as efficient as the A330 family in the routes it compete. Appreciate some knoweldge person to share some thoughts on this remarkable B777 family.
 
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BreninTW
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:45 am

According to Boeing's O&D:

Total 777 deliveries to date: 1017
777-200: 88
777-200ER: 417
777-200LR: 54
777-300: 60
777-300ER: 338
777F: 60

For some reason Boeing's 777-family report isn't reporting the non-ER/LR versions, so these numbers might be a little out.
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:53 am

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 1):
For some reason Boeing's 777-family report isn't reporting the non-ER/LR versions, so these numbers might be a little out.

Thats because they are no longer offered, they did the same with the 747, but from what I remember your numbers are correct.
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Stitch
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:26 pm

Boeing marketing claims the 777-300 burns 33% less fuel and has 40% lower operating costs than the 747-200. With a 3700nm range at MZFW, it was a purely regional plane which was why it generally was of interest to Asian carriers (SQ, CX, KE, TG, NH and JL) and EK. A total of 60 airframes were delivered to 8 carriers.

The 777-200 has indeed been eclipsed by the A330-300. While the 777-200 can lift more payload weight or fly farther than the A330-300* with the same payload, the A330-300 is a significantly lighter airframe, which makes it a fair bit more fuel efficient.

Once the A330-300 TOWs started to grow, that pretty much killed the 777-200 and allowed the plane to muscle in on territory formerly controlled by the 777-200ER (if you didn't need the extra range).



* - 45t payload with a 254t TOW for the 777-200 and 235t TOW for the A330-300E using Airbus and Boeing Payload-Range charts from their respective ACAPS. The A330-300X will see a TOW increase to 240t at which point it will fly about 300nm farther than the 777-200 with 45t.
 
DFWHeavy
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:39 pm

All versions of the 777 can still be ordered and delivered. However, no one else will order any.
Christopher W Slovacek
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:49 pm

The link below provides a performance summary on all 777 versions. Fuel burn per seat in the standard Boeing configuration might help you.


www.boeing.com/commercial/startup/pdf/777_perf.pdf
 
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:10 pm

Correction to my above post:

Any 777 model can still be bought, but the 200, 200ER and 300 will not see anymore orders. The 300ER and 200F certainly will.
Christopher W Slovacek
 
celestar
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:45 am

Therefore, one can reasonably say, that the B777-200 and B777-300 was a sales failure?
Or, a more correct way to say, they paved the way for the successful sales for their long range family member - the ER/LR models? Correct me if I am wrong, I though the B777-200 would be a ideal upgrade for existing US domestic carrier who are using the old 767-200/300. I thought with all the retired DC10 and Tristar, the 777-200 or 300 would be a nice replacement plus upgrade in capacity. Maybe it is bad economy condition, we still see so many of these old birds flying and most US domestic carrier choose to buy 777-200ER (recently some limited 777-300ER) for international route. I understand the impact of 911 to the airline industry but still, overall speaking, not wanting to get into the Boeing vs Airbus fight, A330 seems to a good product and investment in this segment. The A340 was a total sales failre, being outdated so quickly.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:12 am

Quoting celestar (Reply 7):
Therefore, one can reasonably say, that the B777-200 and B777-300 was a sales failure?

As individual models, yes.

The 777-200 and 777-200ER were (effectively) developed in parallel so airlines knew a more capable model was going to be available within a few years of the EIS of the 777-200. As such, customers either skipped the 777-200 and waited for the 777-200ER or they ordered a smaller number of 777-200s and a larger number of 777-200ERs depending on their needs.

By the time the 777-300 entered service (mid-1998) the number of 747-200Bs in use on regional missions were probably not very large. So the inherent market for the model would not have been very large.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:13 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
The 777-200 and 777-200ER were (effectively) developed in parallel so airlines knew a more capable model was going to be available within a few years of the EIS of the 777-200. As such, customers either skipped the 777-200 and waited for the 777-200ER or they ordered a smaller number of 777-200s and a larger number of 777-200ERs depending on their needs.

Another way of looking at it is that the 77A was approximately a direct DC-10/L-1011 replacement. The 772's performance is far greater than the DC-10/L-1011 could ever have offered (you can fly a 772 from SFO to SYD; you can't do that with a DC-10/L-1011).

88+60 airframes is nothing to sneeze at. They just don't compare to the 77W and 772.

The 77L probably isn't a "failure," either. There is absolutely nothing in that airframe that doesn't also exist in either the 77F or 77W. The avionics, systems, wings, engines, interior, landing gear, etc. etc. etc. are all identical to the 77W or 77F. The design costs had to have been negligible with the only major expense in the program being certification. Obviously, I don't know the "break-even" number for the 77L but I'd bet that as few as ten frames would have done the trick. Boeing was well aware that it wasn't going to be a fast seller, but it was too easy not to design.
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Stitch
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:04 pm

Well the 777-200LR and 777 Freighter are effectively the same airframe aside from the floor beams, so between the two of them, they've likely paid off the R&D bill.
 
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:28 pm

I doubt Boeing lost money on any of their 777 programmes and therefore turning a profit for a profit-seeking manufacturing business, I don't think any 777 variant can be deemed a failure.
 
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zkojq
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 6):
Any 777 model can still be bought, but the 200, 200ER and 300 will not see anymore orders.

While I agree with you on the -200 and -300, I wouldn't be so sure about the 777-200ER. ANA recently took delivery of a few and ASIANA will soon take delivery of one (HL8254) that is currently undergoing flight-tests at Seattle. I think its likely that the 777-200ER will see a few more small orders.
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:38 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
254t TOW for the 777-200

The information that Boeing provides about the 772's highest MTOW option is confusing, to say the least.

254t obviously comes from the payload-range chart http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7772sec3.pdf (page 4), dated July 1998.
The Airplane description http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7772sec2.pdf (pages 3 to 5) dated July 1999 says 242.63t (and obviously refers to the 772ER as the HGW option, not listing the heaviest variants), while Boeing's 772/772ER Technical Characteristics page http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/pf/pf_200product.html states 247.2t.
The 247.2t number is consistent with the EASA TCDS http://www.easa.europa.eu/certificat...28IM%29_Boeing_777-09-20072011.pdf (page 7), no such data in the FAA TCDS.


And the A330 payload-range chart STILL refers to the 233t MTOW versions of both the -200 and -300.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 12):
While I agree with you on the -200 and -300, I wouldn't be so sure about the 777-200ER. ANA recently took delivery of a few and ASIANA will soon take delivery of one (HL8254) that is currently undergoing flight-tests at Seattle. I think its likely that the 777-200ER will see a few more small orders.

Yes I agree as well. The 200ER remains the best selling, and arguably the most versatile, of all the 777s.
The question is how much more than a 200ER does the LR cost? If it's a small amount, then I can't see why anyone would order the 200ER, even if they don't need the extra range of the LR per se. But if the price differential is huge, than I can see a number of airlines continuing to order 777200ERs, esp as it is a nice fit sizewise between the smaller787 and larger 77W.
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting at (Reply 14):
The question is how much more than a 200ER does the LR cost? If it's a small amount, then I can't see why anyone would order the 200ER, even if they don't need the extra range of the LR per se. But if the price differential is huge, than I can see a number of airlines continuing to order 777200ERs, esp as it is a nice fit sizewise between the smaller787 and larger 77W.

The LR costs 31.1 million more according to Boeing lists prices. Prices are no longer listed for the 777-200/300 and hence not being offered, same for the 747 which only has prices for the 747-8I/8F.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/index.html
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Stitch
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 15):
Prices are no longer listed for the 777-200/300 and hence not being offered, same for the 747 which only has prices for the 747-8I/8F.

While not formally listed, if an airline wanted a 777-200 or 777-300, Boeing could build it for them as the airframes are effectively the same as the 777-200ER in terms of parts and the 777-200ER is still on offer.

The 747-8 represents a rather significant change from the 747-400 in enough areas that Boeing has chosen to no longer offer the earlier models for sale.
 
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 15):
The LR costs 31.1 million more according to Boeing lists prices. Prices are no longer listed for the 777-200/300 and hence not being offered, same for the 747 which only has prices for the 747-8I/8F.

Wow, does this mean that the 200ER is not for sale anymore? If so, that seems premature to me. May be they want airlines to order the more expensive LR models?
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
While not formally listed, if an airline wanted a 777-200 or 777-300, Boeing could build it for them as the airframes are effectively the same as the 777-200ER in terms of parts and the 777-200ER is still on offer.

True, but who would order one when the 200ER is still available?

Quoting at (Reply 17):
Wow, does this mean that the 200ER is not for sale anymore? If so, that seems premature to me. May be they want airlines to order the more expensive LR models?

It is still available, if you look at the link from my previous post your still see a price for it.
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Stitch
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:45 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 18):
True, but who would order one when the 200ER is still available?

Evidently, nobody.  
 
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ADent
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:53 am

Quoting celestar (Reply 7):
Correct me if I am wrong, I though the B777-200 would be a ideal upgrade for existing US domestic carrier who are using the old 767-200/300. I thought with all the retired DC10 and Tristar, the 777-200 or 300 would be a nice replacement plus upgrade in capacity.

Correct. But the US airlines ended up replacing those domestic widebodies with 737NGs/A320s/757s. So no more domestic widebodies and thus no more 777-200s.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:11 am

Quoting celestar (Reply 7):
I thought with all the retired DC10 and Tristar, the 777-200 or 300 would be a nice replacement plus upgrade in capacity.

When it came to DC-10 and L-1011 replacements, UA and AA went with the 777-200, while DL and CO went with the 767-400ER.
 
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RE: Fuel Efficiency Of Boeing 777-300

Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting at (Reply 14):
I can't see why anyone would order the 200ER, even if they don't need the extra range of the LR per se

If you already operate the 200ER, and don't operate the 300ER or 200LR, ordering a 200LR would add a new type to your fleet. So its more than just how many dollars you drop when you pick up the keys to your new plane.

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