Viscount724
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Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:38 am

Noted following item in the Transport Canada daily occurrence reports for July 3. The report originated at 4519N/6134W, slightly east of Halifax, or about 1 hour after departure from BOS.

DLH425, Airbus A340-600, enroute from Boston (KBOS) to Munich (EDDM), requested descent clearance from 37,000 ft. to 35,000 ft. due to an engine problem. The flight crew reported that the number-two engine was shut down. No emergency was declared. The aircraft continued to destination.


Reminds me of the BA 744 that shut down an engine soon after takeoff from LAX in 2005 and continued to LHR on 3 engines which prompted quite a bit of criticism.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:31 am

It does seem quite similar. However just as in the BA case on three engines a quad still has to have two more engine shutdowns to get down to one. Say they had one more shutdown (this has never happened on jets if memory serves), they could get to an alternate on two.

Did the crew unduly endanger the aircraft? I would say not. Could this become a PR nightmare? Yes.
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LH707330
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:53 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
Say they had one more shutdown (this has never happened on jets if memory serves), they could get to an alternate on two.

Nitpick: They've never had independent failures. IIRC BA 009 lost all 4 flying through volcanic ash in 1984.
 
Horstroad
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:56 am

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 2):
(this has never happened on jets if memory serves)

Things tend to have never happened before, until they occur for the first time...
 
Max Q
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:08 am

Here we go again..


How long before this non event is turned into 'how irresponsible the Pilots were to continue'



In an echo of the mudslinging from the Press and the FAA that the BA Pilots had to endure.



Just as a reminder the FAA had to back down from the threat of action against that Captain when it was realized that they were the agency that originally certified the B747 to continue on three engines after a shutdown.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:12 am

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 2):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
Say they had one more shutdown (this has never happened on jets if memory serves), they could get to an alternate on two.

Nitpick: They've never had independent failures. IIRC BA 009 lost all 4 flying through volcanic ash in 1984.

Yes fair enough. That is what I should have said. Independent failures. Apparently this crew felt that the fault was isolated to the one engine.

Quoting horstroad (Reply 3):
Things tend to have never happened before, until they occur for the first time...

Fair enough as well, but you have to draw the line somewhere. I'll take my chances of dual engine failures for independent reasons.
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ImperialEagle
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:07 pm

Quoting horstroad (Reply 3):
Things tend to have never happened before, until they occur for the first time...

Thats what I was thinking.
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
Did the crew unduly endanger the aircraft? I would say not. Could this become a PR nightmare? Yes.

Exactly. If the media will let it go instead of shaking it like a puppy with a rag-doll it may dissapear.

Personally, I'd rather be out over the Atlantic with three engines than one. -----Just 'sayin.
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:09 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
Reminds me of the BA 744

Only difference is this crew managed to get to their destination unlike the BA 744.
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 7):
Only difference is this crew managed to get to their destination unlike the BA 744.

The difference being, they did have enough fuel to reach Heathrow, but encountered stronger than forecast winds, which resulted in more fuel than calculated being burned.

This happens with aircraft operating with all engines working (757)
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wilco737
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:49 am

Boeing officially states that continuing on 3 engines (for the B744) is no problem, UNLESS there was a severe damage to the engine if the structural integrity is in doubt. If you have a precautionary shutdown, then it is fine to continue to the destination.

I am sure this is same with Airbus and their quads. Flying on 3 engines is no big deal.

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HaveBlue
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:52 am

And for those that think flying over the ocean on 3 engines out of 4 is a big deal, I'd recommend talking to some P-3 pilots.. who do it as a matter of course  
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GST
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:16 am

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 10):
I'd recommend talking to some P-3 pilots.. who do it as a matter of course

If I remember correctly the Nimrod also regularly shut down 2 engines for extended loiter, and like the P-3 folks this is more than likely to be done at low altitude, a fortifying routine!
 
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:24 am

I realise that engine brakes would be too heavy for the the pax quads just to use in the even of a shutdown but does the nimrod (or similar) use engine brakes to reduce the windmill drag when the engines are shut down?

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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:02 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 8):
The difference being, they did have enough fuel to reach Heathrow, but encountered stronger than forecast winds, which resulted in more fuel than calculated being burned.

Going east, wouldn't he have been helped rather than hurt by prevailing winds?
 
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:46 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 13):
Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 8):
The difference being, they did have enough fuel to reach Heathrow, but encountered stronger than forecast winds, which resulted in more fuel than calculated being burned.

Going east, wouldn't he have been helped rather than hurt by prevailing winds?

Yes. However that is already built into the model. If the winds are less favorable than predicted...
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Mcoov
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:50 pm

Did the crew alert the passengers that they were out an engine? I can imagine that if they were continuing on to MUC that it may not have been necessary, but...

Also: have LH's mechanics been able to look at the engine yet? Has the issue been found?
 
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:03 am

Quoting Mcoov (Reply 15):
Did the crew alert the passengers that they were out an engine?

Why would they?

Quoting Mcoov (Reply 15):
I can imagine that if they were continuing on to MUC that it may not have been necessary, but...

But what?

Quoting Mcoov (Reply 15):
Also: have LH's mechanics been able to look at the engine yet? Has the issue been found?

LH is one of the select few airlines in the world that has dedicated RR engineers based in Germany working along side the LH Technik mechanics. All the Trent engines will be transferring operational data to a RR monitoring station, which after a failure mode analysis will relay the information to the mechanics on the ground for a fix.
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:08 am

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 16):
LH is one of the select few airlines in the world that has dedicated RR engineers based in Germany working along side the LH Technik mechanics. All the Trent engines will be transferring operational data to a RR monitoring station, which after a failure mode analysis will relay the information to the mechanics on the ground for a fix.

They could have dropped it off over derby on the way   

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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:06 am

Would a B-52 even notice a single engine shut down?  
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:15 am

Quoting Sasha (Reply 18):

Would a B-52 even notice a single engine shut down?

There's an old joke about that, probably based on a true story:.

"A military pilot called ATC for a priority landing because his single-engine jet fighter was running "a bit peaked." ATC told the fighter jock that he was number two behind a B-52 that had one shut down.

"Ah," the pilot remarked, "the dreaded seven-engine approach!""
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bond007
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 8):
The difference being, they did have enough fuel to reach Heathrow, but encountered stronger than forecast winds, which resulted in more fuel than calculated being burned.

...which means they didn't have enough fuel to reach Heathrow!

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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:29 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 20):
Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 8):
The difference being, they did have enough fuel to reach Heathrow, but encountered stronger than forecast winds, which resulted in more fuel than calculated being burned.

...which means they didn't have enough fuel to reach Heathrow!

Diverting due to unexpected weather conditions happens to lots of flights.
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bond007
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:37 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 21):
Diverting due to unexpected weather conditions happens to lots of flights.

Of course they do ... but they don't usually declare emergencies.

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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:58 am

Quoting bond007 (Reply 22):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 21):
Diverting due to unexpected weather conditions happens to lots of flights.

Of course they do ... but they don't usually declare emergencies.

It was an unfortunate convergence of events. If the flight had diverted to MAN on four engines the press would never have noticed. If it had flown to LHR on three engines the press might not have noticed. The combination of the two made it such a big deal to the press.

In fact the event proved that current regs regarding alternates and so forth do work.
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longhauler
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:04 am

Quoting bond007 (Reply 20):
Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 8):
The difference being, they did have enough fuel to reach Heathrow, but encountered stronger than forecast winds, which resulted in more fuel than calculated being burned.

...which means they didn't have enough fuel to reach Heathrow!

Jimbo

It would appear the point Dano was making is that, at the start of the 3 engine trip to LHR, there was sufficient fuel to make it all the way to LHR with reserves .... had flight planned winds been encountered. However, the encountered winds were not as forecast thus they were not able to make LHR.

The number of engines operating will have no bearing if winds are not as forecast, which is the point Starlionblue is making:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 21):
Diverting due to unexpected weather conditions happens to lots of flights.

While "what if" always leaves open questions, there is a very good chance that even if that flight had not lost an engine climbing out of LAX, they still would not have been able to make it to LHR. While it is very rare that flight planned winds are incorrect, it does happen.
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:27 am

Thanks longhauler. That is exactly the point I was making.

The hubbub surrounding the incident is classic "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" ("After this, therefore because of this") fallacy. The events, while related, were not causally linked. The loss of an engine did not directly cause the diversion to MAN.

However the press interpreted things as "they lost an engine and then didn't even make it to their destination! The sky is falling!"
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bond007
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 24):
The number of engines operating will have no bearing if winds are not as forecast
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
The loss of an engine did not directly cause the diversion to MAN.

Is this really true?

I may be wrong, but wasn't one of the favorable altitudes given by ATC declined because they couldn't reach it due to reduced performance on 3 engines?

Even if this was not the case, the number of engines, hence performance, can certainly restrict the altitudes available, so to say it has no bearing if winds are not as forecast, is not true....it absolutely could.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 24):
While "what if" always leaves open questions, there is a very good chance that even if that flight had not lost an engine climbing out of LAX, they still would not have been able to make it to LHR.

But again, they wouldn't have declared an emergency.

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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 26):
Quoting longhauler (Reply 24):
The number of engines operating will have no bearing if winds are not as forecast
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
The loss of an engine did not directly cause the diversion to MAN.

Is this really true?

I may be wrong, but wasn't one of the favorable altitudes given by ATC declined because they couldn't reach it due to reduced performance on 3 engines?

Even if this was not the case, the number of engines, hence performance, can certainly restrict the altitudes available, so to say it has no bearing if winds are not as forecast, is not true....it absolutely could.

The point, again, is that forecast winds may be wrong. If they are wrong, which does happen, an aircraft may not make its destination. In this case, yes, the loss of an engine had an effect, but it did not directly cause the diversion.

The crew did their calculations and figured they could make LHR. They did not make LHR and thus diverted. However they would have made analogous calculations on four engines. The fact that they were on three altered the calculations but they did not start flying across the Atlantic knowing they would not make LHR.
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bond007
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:29 pm

We'll agree to disagree then  

It does happen frequently, but doesn't cause the crew to declare an emergency (sorry to repeat myself).... that is my only differing point here.

If they were on four engines and didn't make it to LHR, they wouldn't have declared an emergency ...just diverted like everyone else does. They were unsure of their fuel situation, which was directly related to the engine failure.

The hype wasn't necessarily caused by the media, it was caused by the fact that the pilot declared a 'MAYDAY' and the aircraft was followed in by fire trucks etc... If it had diverted to MAN on 3 engines and no emergency was declared, I'm sure the media coverage would have been much different.

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zeke
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:32 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 28):

If they were on four engines and didn't make it to LHR, they wouldn't have declared an emergency ...just diverted like everyone else does. They were unsure of their fuel situation, which was directly related to the engine failure.

They diverted to MAN as they could not access all the fuel they had onboard, something that could happen on all engines on any aircraft. They had enough fuel for LHR, just not where they could get at it.
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bond007
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 29):
They diverted to MAN as they could not access all the fuel they had onboard, something that could happen on all engines on any aircraft.

So are you saying that the fuel issue was totally unrelated to the fact they were on 3 engines, and would still have happened if the engine failure did not occur?


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longhauler
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 28):
It does happen frequently, but doesn't cause the crew to declare an emergency (sorry to repeat myself).... that is my only differing point here.


A Mayday or PanPan would have been declared due to the engine out, either at LHR or MAN.

It would be prudent to advise ATC. This would be for many reasons, perhaps to inspect the aircraft on landing, (although after 9 hours cruising with it shut down, that really isn't necessary), more more likely to arrange traffic so that a go-around is less likely. The B747 is very capable of performing a 3 engine go-around, just no need to test it!

But with regard to the wind, let me explain how the decision process likely went. At cruise on 3 engines after leaving LAX, the crew likely advised their Operations of the condition of the aircraft. Who would then advice the Captain of the acceptable options, allowing a joint final decision to be made. Maybe return to LAX, maybe land en-route like YYZ or JFK, or continue to the destination.

The calculations to continue to LHR would have been at the LOWER 3 engine cruise altitude. And the forecast winds there would have been used. It is not haphazard like you may fear. I would imagine the decision to continue to LHR was a very careful decision made and agreed to by many people.

As luck would have it, other external factors changed the outcome, and alternate plans were made ... again, by more than one person.

Yes, the Captain has the final decision, but that is an informed decision, will all the considerations factored in. he could have responded that no, he is not continuing to LHR and he is returning to LAX. No one would have questioned it. What that Captain would NOT have done, is continued to LHR after having been told that he may not have sufficient fuel!
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bond007
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:12 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 31):
It is not haphazard like you may fear. I would imagine the decision to continue to LHR was a very careful decision made and agreed to by many people.

...and I don't disagree at all that this was the case, and in no way thought it was 'haphazard'.

Just stating what the outcome was and asking some questions.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 31):
A Mayday or PanPan would have been declared due to the engine out, either at LHR or MAN.

It would be prudent to advise ATC. This would be for many reasons, perhaps to inspect the aircraft on landing, (although after 9 hours cruising with it shut down, that really isn't necessary), more more likely to arrange traffic so that a go-around is less likely. The B747 is very capable of performing a 3 engine go-around, just no need to test it!

But that wasn't why a Mayday was declared at MAN ... this was due to the Captain being concerned the useable fuel at landing would be below the minimum reserve.

Jimbo
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 32):
But that wasn't why a Mayday was declared at MAN ... this was due to the Captain being concerned the useable fuel at landing would be below the minimum reserve.


It doesn't say that on the (abbreviated) report I read, however, that would make sense with regard to what Zeke says above. In other words, it had nothing to due with how many engines were running.
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:02 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 30):
So are you saying that the fuel issue was totally unrelated to the fact they were on 3 engines, and would still have happened if the engine failure did not occur?

A 747 with all 4 engines running can get itself into a situation where it cannot access all of the available fuel onboard, it can happen on any aircraft that has multiple fuel tanks. To get the fuel to transfer from the inboard tanks to the outboard, they actually needed to select both of the main pumps in the outboard tanks off.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 32):
But that wasn't why a Mayday was declared at MAN ... this was due to the Captain being concerned the useable fuel at landing would be below the minimum reserve.

Useable is the operative word, if it is not accessible, it is not useable.

Just to clear up this with some numbers :
Minimum they were required to land with : 4.5 t
Predicted landing value 3 engines at LAX : 7t
After flying across the US, fuel prediction for LHR : 10t
Unable to get 350, flew the NA at 290, prediction showed : 7t
After flying the NA, FMC showed LHR with 6.5t, this was their no go figure, they re-planned for MAN with a prediction of 7t.
On descent into MAN, they thought the fuel was not feed from the tanks correctly, they thought some of the fuel would be unusable, hence they thought would be landing with less than 4.5t useable
They landed with 5.8t, 1.3t above what is required for a MAYDAY.

The aircraft was eventually flown on 3 engines from MAN to LHR empty without further incident.
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bond007
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 34):
A 747 with all 4 engines running can get itself into a situation where it cannot access all of the available fuel onboard, it can happen on any aircraft that has multiple fuel tanks

Agreed, but in this particular incident, it was directly related to 3-engine fuel management, hence the recommendation on revising procedures for such.

I understand how much fuel they 'really' had, but that isn't really the point.

I don't disagree that losing an engine, and fuel mis-mananagment, can be totally unrelated, but in case they were. It was the crew's management of the fuel systems specifically for a 3-engine scenario.
AFAIK they didn't revise 4-engine fuel management procedures.


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747400sp
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:21 am

If a 747 can do it, and fly over the Polar Caps, why can't an A340 do the same thing over the Atlantic Ocean.
 
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 36):
If a 747 can do it, and fly over the Polar Caps, why can't an A340 do the same thing over the Atlantic Ocean.

I think we have no problem saying the aircraft can do it... but taking an unnecessary risk is a problem. There is no reason to continue a trans-atlantic 1/5 of the way through the crossing on three engines out of four engines.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:34 am

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 37):
There is no reason to continue a trans-atlantic 1/5 of the way through the crossing on three engines out of four engines.

Sure there are reasons: Wanting to get pax to their destination and returning to the main maintenance base.

There are aircraft crossing the pond every day on two engines. Today four-holers have to follow pretty much the same strict rules regarding redundancy as the twins. Three engines hardly seems like a death-defying stunt. Stuff is broken on planes all the time.
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:44 am

Quoting bond007 (Reply 35):
it was directly related to 3-engine fuel management

It was related to fuel tank and fuel pump management, the engine being out was a red herring. The fuel pumps being used were not related to the engine or the engine out, they are related to the respective fuel tanks.
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bond007
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:37 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 39):
the engine being out was a red herring.

That's not what the report said.

"The three qualified pilots were not confident
that all the fuel was available and their difficulties
with fuel management indicated that their knowledge
of the fuel system with three engines operating was
insufficient."

"It is therefore recommended that the
operator include relevant instruction on 3-engined fuel
handling during initial and recurrent training."

Apparently not.

No 'Red Herring' here unless you disagree with the report.

Really, I'm not sure why this is in question.


Jimbo
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zeke
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:31 am

Quoting bond007 (Reply 40):

No 'Red Herring' here unless you disagree with the report.

Really, I'm not sure why this is in question.

I disagree with your take on the report, which essentially appears to come from not having relevant experience or knowledge of the type. The report said pilots from the same operator flew the same aircraft on 3 engines to LHR from MAN, and they were able to correctly apply the correct fuel management technique with an engine out. I should also add, they very same aircraft had another in flight shutdown on the way back from SIN about a week later, that crew also continued to LHR without incident.

The engine out situation gave that particular crew from LAX a mindset/bias that somehow the fuel situation was associated with engine being out, you appear have the same mindset/bias. They are independent systems, an example of this independence is that one can happily transfer fuel around between tanks without any of the engines running, this is a common practice on the ground to get a desired fuel distribution if the fuel load is not balanced. If someone had asked them how they would transfer fuel if none of the engines were running, I think the penny would have dropped.

The technique is the same to transfer fuel with the engine running or not, it is a fuel management issue, not a engine issue. The pumps are associated with the tanks and not the engine. They are not the first crews to experience this, and they will not be the last. I know we had some very red faced crews one day when we first got the 744 almost divert into SEA with all engines running as they thought they could not get access to all the fuel onboard, this was another case of a fuel management issue and not understanding the fuel system. It took one of the guys on the ground a few thousand miles away, that did not come into the situation with a group bias to ask a few questions. He simply told them it is behaving like it should, and once the fuel level reduced more, the fuel will begin to transfer. The aircraft continued on without incident.

This incident happened on descent, they probably thought it would be best just to get it on the ground rather than trouble shoot. If it was in the cruise, I am sure they would have also phoned a friendly mechanic, and would have been reminded on the technique and that would have been the end of it.
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bond007
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:49 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 41):
I disagree with your take on the report, which essentially appears to come from not having relevant experience or knowledge of the type.

I wondered when this line was coming out!

The report clearly says it was related to them being on 3-engines, and I've quoted it. It actually has little to do with whether the systems/procedures are the same with 4 or 3 engines ... the crew acted the way they did from a fuel management perspective, because they were on only 3-engines...apparently different than they would have done on 4 engines.
Little of this is my opinion.

Let's move on ...... I don't fly 4-engine airliners, so not qualified to comment.


Jimbo

[Edited 2012-07-10 04:54:43]
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Mir
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:31 pm

Quoting GST (Reply 11):
If I remember correctly the Nimrod also regularly shut down 2 engines for extended loiter, and like the P-3 folks this is more than likely to be done at low altitude, a fortifying routine!

There's a big difference between intentionally shutting down an engine or two as part of normal ops and having to shut an engine down due to an abnormal situation. In the first scenario, nothing's wrong. In the second scenario, something clearly is, and you may not be sure what, and to what extent it affects the rest of the airplane.

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strfyr51
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:19 am

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 10):

True to a point, We shut down enginges to save fuel in order to stay on station longer At times we also shut down #4 as WELL as the #1 engine to stay out the Max time. My longest Patrol was 17.6 Hrs takeoff to landing..
Since the average cruise was only 230Kias It didn't make that much difference how fast you got there but How long you could prosecute your search .
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:31 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 44):
Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 10):

True to a point, We shut down enginges to save fuel in order to stay on station longer At times we also shut down #4 as WELL as the #1 engine to stay out the Max time. My longest Patrol was 17.6 Hrs takeoff to landing..
Since the average cruise was only 230Kias It didn't make that much difference how fast you got there but How long you could prosecute your search .

Quite. I bet the best endurance speed is lower than the best range speed, and that you get more range with all four engines.
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zeke
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:40 am

Quoting bond007 (Reply 42):
the crew acted the way they did from a fuel management perspective, because they were on only 3-engines...apparently different than they would have done on 4 engines.

I agree that their false belief/mindset was directly related to being on 3 engines, and I agree that the " the crew acted the way they did" because of this.

That is a CRM/Human factors issue with that particular crew, it is not a physical or mechanical characteristic of being on 3 engines, that was the point I was making.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 45):
I bet the best endurance speed is lower than the best range speed, and that you get more range with all four engines.

If you have a look at the P-3 specifications, I think you will be surprised at the MTOW and payload/range that aircraft can achieve. Not sure if the figures are public domain, they do have a peacetime and wartime MTOW. They are a very fast aircraft down low when they need to be. They are a bit deceptive if you think of them as just another turboprop.
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Viscount724
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:16 pm

There's an update on this event in today's Transport Canada occurrence reports.

UPDATE TSB: A12A0070: The Lufthansa Airlines Airbus A340-600 aircraft (D-AIHU), operating as flight DLH425, was en route from Boston (KBOS) to Munich (EDDM). About 75 miles west of Sydney NS, the crew received several ECAM warnings for the #2 engine (Rolls Royce Trent 553). A precautionary shutdown was carried out and the flight continued to destination without further incident. Company maintenance personnel replaced the #2 engine's electronic engine control and returned the aircraft to service.
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: Lufthansa A340-600 Transatlantic On 3 Engines

Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:44 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 12):
I realise that engine brakes would be too heavy for the the pax quads just to use in the even of a shutdown but does the nimrod (or similar) use engine brakes to reduce the windmill drag when the engines are shut down?

The Nimrod didn't use rotor brakes. The drag from a non windmilling turbine engine would be far greater than for a windmilling one.
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