Valorien
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Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:06 pm

I was wondering why we haven't seen any Next Generation Boeing 737's flying inter-island in Hawaii. In the past, Aloha only used their 737-700s for transoceanic flights and currently, Alaska Airlines flies their 737-800s transoceanic with no inter-island flying.

[Edited 2012-07-17 14:06:36]
 
srbmod
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:21 pm

If I remember correctly, Aloha did operate some inter-island services with their 737NGs, but the duty was a bit rough on them in comparison to the 732s, which was really ideally suited for that sort of operation (Multiple takeoffs and landings a days, short range flights with short flight times). HA used the DC-9 and later the 717 as that sort of operation is what the a/c was designed for.

Quoting Valorien (Thread starter):
Alaska Airlines flies their 737-800s transoceanic with no inter-island flying.

Not really a valid example seeing as AS doesn't offer any services between airports in Hawaii.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:31 pm

IIRC it has to do with the NG's CFM56 engines and that fact they don't like the 20 minute turns of the inter-island trips. The Rolls-Royce motors the Hawaiian B712's and the JT8D that the Aloha B732's used required much less maintenance.
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canoecarrier
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:37 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 1):
If I remember correctly, Aloha did operate some inter-island services with their 737NGs, but the duty was a bit rough on them in comparison to the 732s, which was really ideally suited for that sort of operation (Multiple takeoffs and landings a days, short range flights with short flight times). HA used the DC-9 and later the 717 as that sort of operation is what the a/c was designed for.

Quoting Valorien (Thread starter):
Alaska Airlines flies their 737-800s transoceanic with no inter-island flying.

Not really a valid example seeing as AS doesn't offer any services between airports in Hawaii.

Perhaps a better example is when AS phased out the 732-combis for the milk run flights through JNU YAK, CDV and other small towns along the inside passage they replaced them with 734s rather than NGs. Short legs (other than the flight to JNU) and 30-45 min flights between towns.
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KELPkid
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:33 pm

The CFM56 doesn't like flight profiles that include high power settings on climb and carrying power on descent without nice, cool, cruise air (and lower thrust settings) in between. You can do that for a few cycles, but as I understand it, operating the engines like this constantly significantly shortens the engine life, which is why AQ withdrew 737 Classics and NG's from inter-island flying...
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QANTAS747-438
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:39 am

I believe that the NGs aren't that great for interisland flying because the engine cores don't have enough time to cool down. The plane has such short flights at lower altitudes that the engines are stressed more than usual. There was something with the 737-200 engine design that made that engine more forgiveable for those flights, hence Aloha using them.
My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
 
747400sp
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:51 am

If you notice, WN use mostly 737 300/500s, on their inter California service, and flights to AZ and LAS. 737 NG, are more of a longer haul plane.      
 
Valorien
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:19 am

So in other words, we shouldn't expect Southwest Airlines to fly their B737-800's inter-island anytime soon?
 
EIDL
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):

IIRC it has to do with the NG's CFM56 engines and that fact they don't like the 20 minute turns of the inter-island trips.

FR do extremely tight turnarounds on their entirely 738/CFM56 fleet fleet so I don't think that's a major factor in the list of reasons why.
 
cargolex
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting EIDL (Reply 8):
FR do extremely tight turnarounds on their entirely 738/CFM56 fleet fleet so I don't think that's a major factor in the list of reasons why.

But how many 20-minute sectors does FR fly? The turnaround can be short if the sectors are longer, giving the engines more cool cruise air. I've seen FL, WN, and F9 do sub-25-minute turns with CFM-56 powered aircraft, but the sectors are far longer than inter-island Hawaii even if they aren't anything like U.S. Tracon.

These interisland distances are more like Shannon-Dublin or Shannon-Blackpool, which are sectors I don't think anybody would intentionally fly 7 times a day with a jet.
 
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rotating14
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:00 pm

What would be the largest route length (nm) wise to warrant flying a 737 inter island?
 
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:52 pm

Quoting Valorien (Reply 7):
So in other words, we shouldn't expect Southwest Airlines to fly their B737-800's inter-island anytime soon?

More than likely, unless they do a routing such as LAX-HNL-OGG-LAX.
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:38 pm

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 5):
There was something with the 737-200 engine design that made that engine more forgiveable for those flights, hence Aloha using them.

Another thing; high bipass turbofans offer much less advantage on fuel burn during takeoff and climb AFAIK. So the 732 would be just as good for that mission.

I can remember being in Hawaii in the 80s and seeing the flat-bottom engine cowling you see on 733/735. So that was tried by Hawaiian or Aloha probably.
 
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:34 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 12):
I can remember being in Hawaii in the 80s and seeing the flat-bottom engine cowling you see on 733/735. So that was tried by Hawaiian or Aloha probably.

That would have been Aloha. HA has never flown 737s. Aloha tried 733s and 734s intra-island. I don't think they ever leased a 735.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:58 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 6):
737 NG, are more of a longer haul plane.      

So... You stick you tongue out at them?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 12):

Another thing; high bipass turbofans offer much less advantage on fuel burn during takeoff and climb AFAIK. So the 732 would be just as good for that mission.

Yes and no. There isn't much of a consumption win there, true. But they are able to lift a great deal more given the much higher TSFC, so even then, there is still a significant advantage.
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gigneil
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:26 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 3):
Perhaps a better example is when AS phased out the 732-combis for the milk run flights through JNU YAK, CDV and other small towns along the inside passage they replaced them with 734s rather than NGs.

I'm not sure that's entirely why.

I am more inclined to believe that their 734 combis were certified, and certifying a new 737NG combi not possible. There is a 737-700QC, but no combi.

NS
 
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:15 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 6):
If you notice, WN use mostly 737 300/500s, on their inter California service, and flights to AZ and LAS. 737 NG, are more of a longer haul plane

WRONG, that's a coincidence, WN does fly their -700s on shorter routes, although you mentioned California service, Ive seen, flown , and even worked the ISP-BWI flights which sometimes take less than an hour and operated by 737-700 equipment. Ive even flown DAL-LIT on a -700 before as well. From what I understand some of those intra- HI flights sometimes take less than a 30 mins from gate to gate. I could be wrong though!

Quoting Valorien (Reply 7):
So in other words, we shouldn't expect Southwest Airlines to fly their B737-800's inter-island anytime soon?

Never say never, however I doubt it, IMHO any WN flights out of HI will be strictly to and from the mainland..
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
spink
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:01 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 16):
From what I understand some of those intra- HI flights sometimes take less than a 30 mins from gate to gate. I could be wrong though!

Most of the intra-hi flights are ~100 miles with the longest possible flight (ITO-LIH) at ~300 miles. A lot of those flights spend more time loading/unloading/taxing than actually in the air.
 
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 15):
I am more inclined to believe that their 734 combis were certified, and certifying a new 737NG combi not possible. There is a 737-700QC, but no combi.

Not all flights on that route are 734-combis. It's not uncommon during off peak cargo season for those to be flown by a 734.
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cargolex
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:15 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 15):

I am more inclined to believe that their 734 combis were certified, and certifying a new 737NG combi not possible. There is a 737-700QC, but no combi.

The real reason is that AS had -400s to convert, and there is no conversion program for the -700/-800 yet, nor was there an MD-80SF Conversion at that time. Even if AS had wanted to use newer aircraft for these conversions, there were no STC's for any cargo door mod for any of them at that time (the MD-80 now has a conversion program, but Alaska no longer flies the MD-80).

Furthermore, there is no -700 Combi. There's only the -700C, which in it's current form is either all pax or all cargo and not a mixture. To have it be a combi these days, you need to install a permanent barrier between pax and cargo (which is why Alaska's 734 Combis are not true "QC"s). This could be done on the -700C but nobody ever has, and the -700 isn't big enough to fulfill the role of the Combi with a fixed barrier like the -200QC could without the barrier.

Like gigneil, I don't believe engines were a factor in AS' decision, because the NG was off the table completely at that time (and would also be today).
 
Valorien
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:02 pm

Thanks for the information guys. I also JUST found this information in an old thread from 2010. I originally searched for "inter-island" so I didn't create a new topic on this issue, but failed to search for "interisland". Oh well, here's the thread:

The CFM56 And Hawaii Interisland Flights (by HNLPointShoot Jun 17 2010 in Tech Ops)
 
strfyr51
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:34 am

Quoting cargolex (Reply 19):

Beg to Differ with you, The Navy C40's are operated as combi's , full passenger and full freight those are 737-700 Ng airframes.
 
yeelep
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:33 pm

Everything Cargolex said is spot on.

The Navy C40 is not a commercially certified aircraft. The 737-700C which is the commercial equivalent, is a Convertible not a Combi. It cannot fly freight and passengers on the main deck at the same time.

Think of the -200QC as a convertible/variable combi, the -400C as a fixed combi and the -700C as a convertible.

The current question, and one for another thread, is what will replace the -400C's and -400F in the AS fleet.

[Edited 2012-10-02 07:44:01]
 
ha763
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:52 am

I was working at AQ when they were flying the 73Gs interisland to cover a shortage of 732s that were down for maintenance and to give reserve pilots the flying time to remain current. Increased ground time was built into the schedule, but there was still many times when delays would occur due to engine problems being reported.

Quoting yeelep (Reply 22):
The Navy C40 is not a commercially certified aircraft. The 737-700C which is the commercial equivalent, is a Convertible not a Combi. It cannot fly freight and passengers on the main deck at the same time.

Actually, the C-40A is a commercially certified 737-700C. The U.S. Navy Reserve was the first and launch customer for the type. Boeing just doesn't offer the combi as a factory option. The added combi capability is a FAA certified kit, which means it can be commercially certified as a combi via an STC.

Quote:
The 737-700 aircraft is manufactured by Boeing Commercial Airplanes in Renton, Wash., before moving on to the company's Integrated Defense Systems facility in Wichita, Kan., where an FAA-certified kit is installed to provide the "combi" capability.
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/c40/index.html
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:50 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 3):

Perhaps a better example is when AS phased out the 732-combis for the milk run flights through JNU YAK, CDV and other small towns along the inside passage they replaced them with 734s rather than NGs. Short legs (other than the flight to JNU) and 30-45 min flights between towns.

.....both engines are CFM56s? I don't thin the 3 and 7 are that different as far as cool down time goes.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 5):
There was something with the 737-200 engine design that made that engine more forgiveable for those flights, hence Aloha using them.

that and the JT8D is just a beast.....much like the 737/727/DC9 types it was used on.   they don't make them like that anymore.

Quoting EIDL (Reply 8):

FR do extremely tight turnarounds on their entirely 738/CFM56 fleet fleet so I don't think that's a major factor in the list of reasons why.

You can do tight turns if you have air time to cool down. The problem with intra-HA is air-time is pretty short and thus you have to give the CFM56s time to cool down while on the ground. HA and AQ like(d) to do quick turns which makes it a problem for the 737-3 and up.

And I believe the Airbus with V2500s would have the same problem...but i'm not sure.
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mandala499
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:58 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):
IIRC it has to do with the NG's CFM56 engines and that fact they don't like the 20 minute turns of the inter-island trips. The Rolls-Royce motors the Hawaiian B712's and the JT8D that the Aloha B732's used required much less maintenance.

It's the lack of cooling time between climb and descent... the turnaround itself isn't a problem.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4):
The CFM56 doesn't like flight profiles that include high power settings on climb and carrying power on descent without nice, cool, cruise air (and lower thrust settings) in between. You can do that for a few cycles, but as I understand it, operating the engines like this constantly significantly shortens the engine life, which is why AQ withdrew 737 Classics and NG's from inter-island flying...

On the 737, the need for cooling in cruise power prior to descent, is a problem for the CFM56-7s... the -3s on the classics are more resistant and durable on shorter cruise times, I'll have to check on the short trip fuel burn numbers too... could be interesting...

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 24):
And I believe the Airbus with V2500s would have the same problem...but i'm not sure.

The 320s with the old CFM56-5As, like the -3s, have less of a problem on short cruise time (3 mins min, recomm 5 IIRC) than the newer -5Bs (5mins min, recomm 7, again, IIRC)... the V2500-A1s I dunno, but one carrier on the V2500-A5 cited 5 & 10, or was it 7 & 10... can't remember, it has been a while back.

The 732's JT8Ds however, don't need much cooling time.

Mandala499
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deltal1011man
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:44 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 25):

The 320s with the old CFM56-5As, like the -3s, have less of a problem on short cruise time (3 mins min, recomm 5 IIRC) than the newer -5Bs (5mins min, recomm 7, again, IIRC)... the V2500-A1s I dunno, but one carrier on the V2500-A5 cited 5 & 10, or was it 7 & 10... can't remember, it has been a while back.

I wasn't sure if HA could say use A320 or M90s on its shorthaul. I don't know nearly as much about the V2500 as i would like.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 25):
the -3s on the classics are more resistant and durable on shorter cruise times, I'll have to check on the short trip fuel burn numbers too... could be interesting...

so the CFM56-3 is better for shorter flights. I didn't know this.
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mandala499
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:06 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 26):
so the CFM56-3 is better for shorter flights. I didn't know this.

DL should have the data on this. I think it was in the case of the DL shuttle reverting back to 734s a few years back due to engine maintenance & cruise cooling time. IIRC, DL decided it was better to send the 738s elsewhere for a while.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 26):
I wasn't sure if HA could say use A320 or M90s on its shorthaul. I don't know nearly as much about the V2500 as i would like.

One M90 carrier here used it for very short haul here, the V2500-Ds (?), the problem they had was typical MD... asymmetric reverser deployment...   

I dunno much about Hawaii Ops... but, if Average Hours per cycle is less than 1.00, in the next foreseeable future, better off with 737 Classics... and wouldn't touch the NG or 320 with the -A5/B6s until it's 1.25 or above... start getting the benefits at average 1.5 above. Pure very short haul ops, isn't having a nice set of aircraft choices for the foreseeable future.

HA's 717s, nice for down to 0.75.. don't now about below that... All I know is that MD originally wanted the 95 to be able to do 0.66 - 0.75 hrs per cycle ops. The engine choice was due to this...
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deltal1011man
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:41 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 27):
IIRC, DL decided it was better to send the 738s elsewhere for a while.

maybe...but Delta didn't have 734s. They had 733s, which i assumed went to the shuttle due to its lower capacity.
never really thought about cool down time.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 27):

I dunno much about Hawaii Ops... but, if Average Hours per cycle is less than 1.00, in the next foreseeable future, better off with 737 Classics... and wouldn't touch the NG or 320 with the -A5/B6s until it's 1.25 or above... start getting the benefits at average 1.5 above. Pure very short haul ops, isn't having a nice set of aircraft choices for the foreseeable future.

HA's 717s, nice for down to 0.75.. don't now about below that... All I know is that MD originally wanted the 95 to be able to do 0.66 - 0.75 hrs per cycle ops. The engine choice was due to this...

thanks for the info.
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mandala499
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:09 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 28):
maybe...but Delta didn't have 734s. They had 733s, which i assumed went to the shuttle due to its lower capacity.

D'OH! Yeah, 733s... My mistake.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 28):
never really thought about cool down time.

Dunno about over there, but over here, it's also a relatively "new" thing... and it's important here due to higher air temps even at cruise heights.

For the short flights below 1.25H/Cycle, the carriers here rotate them around even within the same day to obtain that average... Does wonders to the engine MX... and also fuel burn... beancounters love it...   
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ha763
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:55 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 27):
I dunno much about Hawaii Ops... but, if Average Hours per cycle is less than 1.00, in the next foreseeable future, better off with 737 Classics... and wouldn't touch the NG or 320 with the -A5/B6s until it's 1.25 or above... start getting the benefits at average 1.5 above. Pure very short haul ops, isn't having a nice set of aircraft choices for the foreseeable future.

HA's 717s, nice for down to 0.75.. don't now about below that... All I know is that MD originally wanted the 95 to be able to do 0.66 - 0.75 hrs per cycle ops. The engine choice was due to this...

The longest scheduled block time is HNL-ITO at 50 minutes. Actual time in the air, about 40 minutes. Shortest scheduled block time is OGG-KOA at 32 minutes. Actual time in the air, about 20 minutes. HNL-OGG/LIH is scheduled at 37 minutes with a similar in air time.

When HA was flying to MKK and LNY, the MKK-LNY block time was scheduled at 12 minutes.
 
tom355uk
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:41 am

Quoting ha763 (Reply 30):
The longest scheduled block time is HNL-ITO at 50 minutes. Actual time in the air, about 40 minutes. Shortest scheduled block time is OGG-KOA at 32 minutes. Actual time in the air, about 20 minutes. HNL-OGG/LIH is scheduled at 37 minutes with a similar in air time.

When HA was flying to MKK and LNY, the MKK-LNY block time was scheduled at 12 minutes.

Surely given those sort of block times, a Q400 would be a much better fit for Inter HI flying?
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mandala499
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting ha763 (Reply 30):
The longest scheduled block time is HNL-ITO at 50 minutes. Actual time in the air, about 40 minutes. Shortest scheduled block time is OGG-KOA at 32 minutes. Actual time in the air, about 20 minutes. HNL-OGG/LIH is scheduled at 37 minutes with a similar in air time.

Excellent Info... MANY THANKS !   
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syncmaster
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:37 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 15):
I am more inclined to believe that their 734 combis were certified, and certifying a new 737NG combi not possible. There is a 737-700QC, but no combi.

I'm willing to bet this had more to do with the fact that the -400's were cheaper to convert and the -700's are better suited for other operations, not to mention they are considerably newer.
 
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting tom355uk (Reply 31):
Surely given those sort of block times, a Q400 would be a much better fit for Inter HI flying?

You'd have to increase frequency significantly and current frequency is already high. I think you need the jets to meet the demand. If there was a 120 seat turboprop then it would probably make sense. For example, the 87 nm sector HNL-OGG currently has 31 daily HA 717s, often just a few minutes apart. Departure times from Friday's schedule:

0505, 0605, 0629, 0712, 0744, 0800, 0829, 0952, 1010, 1033, 1048, 1131, 1158, 1229, 1234, 1303, 1335, 1410, 1423, 1445, 1516, 1620, 1646, 1710, 1733, 1817, 1845, 1919, 1937, 2016, 2155

HNL-OGG has long been one of the highest frequency U.S. domestic routes. It was probably even higher before Aloha went bust. Above doesn't include another 7 daily CRJs and 3 Dash 8s on the other 2 carriers (Go! and IslandAir)
 
klemmi85
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RE: Why No NG Boeing 737's Flying HI Inter-island?

Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:16 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 34):
0505, 0605, 0629, 0712, 0744, 0800, 0829, 0952, 1010, 1033, 1048, 1131, 1158, 1229, 1234, 1303, 1335, 1410, 1423, 1445, 1516, 1620, 1646, 1710, 1733, 1817, 1845, 1919, 1937, 2016, 2155

That's more like a bus connection timetable than an aircraft one   Very interesting.
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