RussianJet
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Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:41 pm

Does anyone know of any examples of quads landing with two or three engines in operation than they started with? How often has this happened down the years? I am guessing extremely rarely, if at all. Seems to me that a situation serious enough to knock out a couple of engines or more could quickly become catastrophic, though obviously aircraft have put down with no engines before (although the two obvious examples of that I think of were twins - Gimli glider and the Air Transat Madeira landing).

Interested to hear of any such instances and the issues involved.
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BoeingGuy
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:10 pm

An Electra landed at ANC on only one engine. To make matters worse, the engine speed was uncontrollable.

http://contactapproach.blogspot.com/...11/paper-for-flight-safety_10.html

An EA L-1011 landed on only one engine also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_855
 
flyingturtle
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:07 pm

I read here that the A380 has been landed at NCE using only the two inboard engines...

A380 To NCE? (by Kennyone Mar 2 2009 in Civil Aviation)

See the first posting, and # 16 and 17.


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KELPkid
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:24 am

I would think having two engines out on the same side in a quad would be a bad situation...does Vmc certification in a quad cover this? I know Vmc is going to be different with one engine out versus two out on the same side...
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BoeingGuy
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 3):
I would think having two engines out on the same side in a quad would be a bad situation...does Vmc certification in a quad cover this? I know Vmc is going to be different with one engine out versus two out on the same side...

It might be a problem if it happened at V1, but normally flying and landing at the nearest suitable airport with two engines out on the same side could be safely done.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:21 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
normally flying and landing at the nearest suitable airport with two engines out on the same side could be safely done.

Yes, but when we landed an EC-121 (Super Constellation) at Danang with both right side engines out in the fall of 1972 - it was a very high pucker factor.

One thing is we made a very wide unusual pattern because the aircraft commander did not want to put the right wing down.

In Dec 1972 I saw a USAF C-130 crash at NAS Agana Guam. They were doing TNG and had feathered the right outboard engine. The investigation said simulating engine out landings was part of the flight plan.

Just after they lifted off on the last TNG from 6L at about 100 ft agl, the inboard right engine emitted a huge cloud of smoke and the propeller stopped turning, unfeathered. The aircraft started to turn to the right and the right wing went down. It turned about 100-110 degrees and came across 6R and the wing struck the ground just short of the main apron area for the US Navy.



[Edited 2012-07-24 18:33:30]
 
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glen
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:55 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 3):
I would think having two engines out on the same side in a quad would be a bad situation...does Vmc certification in a quad cover this? I know Vmc is going to be different with one engine out versus two out on the same side...

On the A340-300 for example Vmc for two engines inoperative on opposite wings is 125 kt, whereas Vmc for two engines inoperative on the same wing is 157 kt.
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bohica
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 3):
I would think having two engines out on the same side in a quad would be a bad situation..

There was the UA 747 incident in HNL in 1989 where the forward cargo door ripped open and took out a chunk of fuselage skin with it. The debris as well as some of the passengers unfortunately got sucked into the #3 and 4 engines causing failure to those engines. The crew was dealing with an explosive decompression and two engines on the same side out at the same time. Thy were able to land the plane back in HNL with only the two left side engines running.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:03 am

Quoting bohica (Reply 7):
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 3):
I would think having two engines out on the same side in a quad would be a bad situation..

There was the UA 747 incident in HNL in 1989 where the forward cargo door ripped open and took out a chunk of fuselage skin with it. The debris as well as some of the passengers unfortunately got sucked into the #3 and 4 engines causing failure to those engines. The crew was dealing with an explosive decompression and two engines on the same side out at the same time. Thy were able to land the plane back in HNL with only the two left side engines running.

Photo at HNL.



Same aircraft 4 years later. After repairs it was re-registered from N4713U to N4724U.


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Photo © Konstantin von Wedelstaedt

 
wilco737
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:08 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):

I don't know how often it happened, but I do it several times a year in the simulator. I am flying 744's and we have to train 2 engine out quite often. Of course it is the worst case and both engines on one side stop working, so you need to use a lot of rudder. But you can fly the 744 still pretty nicely. Of course climbing is not so good anymore. And even a go around is possible!
Never tried 3 engines out. But will suggest that on my next Sim ride 

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BoeingGuy
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:34 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 9):
Of course climbing is not so good anymore. And even a go around is possible!

Boeing has a procedure for a Two Engine go-around on the 747. Obviously, it's far preferable not to have to do so though.
 
wilco737
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 10):
Boeing has a procedure for a Two Engine go-around on the 747. Obviously, it's far preferable not to have to do so though.

I know. As I said, I am flying 744's so I train this every once in a while. It works pretty well. But as you said: better land than go around 

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canoecarrier
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 9):
Never tried 3 engines out. But will suggest that on my next Sim ride

Didn't Pan Am have a 747 do a one engine landing in Tokyo once? Use that as the basis of your suggestion, I'd like to hear how it performs on 1 engine when you're done  
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redflyer
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 12):
Didn't Pan Am have a 747 do a one engine landing in Tokyo once? Use that as the basis of your suggestion, I'd like to hear how it performs on 1 engine when you're done  

I believe it was a UA 747:

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-05-...s/mn-1523_1_tokyo-jet-lands-safely
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canoecarrier
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:16 pm

Quoting redflyer (Reply 13):
I believe it was a UA 747:

A great quote in that article you linked, "Boeing spokesman David Jimenez, reached at home in Seattle this morning, said he hadn't heard of the incident but wasn't surprised the jet was able to land safely.

"Almost any aircraft we have is capable of operating on one engine," he said.


I suppose that covers just about all Boeing's planes, except maybe the B-52.
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RaginMav
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:43 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 14):
A great quote in that article you linked, "Boeing spokesman David Jimenez, reached at home in Seattle this morning, said he hadn't heard of the incident but wasn't surprised the jet was able to land safely.

"Almost any aircraft we have is capable of operating on one engine," he said.

Of course, a badly managed approach on two engines can end in tragedy:



http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123018520

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI5xTmmPbsY

Fortunately in this case, everyone lived.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 9):
Never tried 3 engines out. But will suggest that on my next Sim ride

I look forward to hearing how that goes! Fascinating!
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imiakhtar
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:08 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 9):
I don't know how often it happened, but I do it several times a year in the simulator. I am flying 744's and we have to train 2 engine out quite often. Of course it is the worst case and both engines on one side stop working, so you need to use a lot of rudder. But you can fly the 744 still pretty nicely. Of course climbing is not so good anymore. And even a go around is possible!

What's the Vmc in such a scenario? I'm guessing you'd have to land at quite a high speed?
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redflyer
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:09 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 14):
A great quote in that article you linked, "Boeing spokesman David Jimenez, reached at home in Seattle this morning, said he hadn't heard of the incident but wasn't surprised the jet was able to land safely.

"Almost any aircraft we have is capable of operating on one engine," he said.

I suppose that covers just about all Boeing's planes, except maybe the B-52.

I guess we would have to first define the meaning of the term "operating on one engine". I suppose in the case of a 52, she could surely glide to a landing, with the one engine providing power to critical on board systems.  
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litz
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:43 pm

The A380 that blew the rotor disc certainly had 1 fewer landing than it started with ...

Question is, if they had to throttle back on another to even out thrust, could have ended up with less than the 3 remaining

[Edited 2012-07-30 11:44:07]
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting litz (Reply 19):
Question is, if they had to throttle back on another to even out thrust, could have ended up with less than the 3 remaining

AFAIK, every airplane is designed so you don't have to throttle back other engines to even out thrust. The 777 and 787 would have automatic rudder input called "Thrust Asymmetry Compensation" (TAC). Other Boeing airplanes have rudder trim, or good old fashioned feet on the rudder pedals. You wouldn't want an airplane designed that would require throttling back good engines just to maintain yaw in the event of an engine failure.

I'm quite sure Airbus airplanes have some equivalent to TAC to also allow safe flight in the event of an engine failure.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:23 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):
AFAIK, every airplane is designed so you don't have to throttle back other engines to even out thrust.

There are corners of the flight envelope where large twins with very large engines at low weight must throttle back the running engine if they're really slow (i.e. at approach speed). This is relatively rare; most twins don't have the problem.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):
The 777 and 787 would have automatic rudder input called "Thrust Asymmetry Compensation" (TAC).

TAC, on a 787, is called iTAC and only operates on the ground. The inflight equivalent of TAC on a 787 is a byproduct of other parts of the lateral-directional control law and is embedded in the flight control system. The 787 has another system called Thrust Asymmetry Protection (TAP) which will throttle back the good engine if the airplane is in danger of dropping below Vmca.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):
You wouldn't want an airplane designed that would require throttling back good engines just to maintain yaw in the event of an engine failure.

It's not an issue at takeoff. The most common time to run into it is a light-weight single-engine go-around. The single-engine thrust is so high to meet the takeoff requirements that, when combined with the very low approach speed of a light aircraft at the end of its trip, it can get very close to Vmca.

Tom.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:43 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 21):
The most common time to run into it is a light-weight single-engine go-around.

That's the critical time.

Landing with multiple engines out is a high intensity event - but a go around with multiple engines out is what I would consider near the worst possible event for a pilot/ crew.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Quads Landing On Two Or One Engine

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:58 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 22):
a go around with multiple engines out is what I would consider near the worst possible event for a pilot/ crew.

I accidentally did this to a poor coworker in the sim; we'd done an engine out at altitude earlier in the session and hadn't noticed that the dead engine never came properly restarted (simulator bug). When he tried to go-around it got ugly in a big hurry.

Tom.

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