Jawed
Topic Author
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:47 am

Gulfstream V Flight Training

Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:43 pm

I know that when taking beginning flight lessons in a Cessna 172, entering a stall and recovering from it is a normal part of training. What about someone learning to fly a Gulfstream V for the first time? Is entering a stall and recovering from it also a normal part of learning to fly such a business jet?

Separately, what are the steps one would have to take to transition from very beginner (in a Cessna 172) all the way to a Gulfstream V? I assume that one would first need an instrument rating and a multi-engine rating for sure. What are the exact steps required, and how long would each step take?
 
26point2
Posts: 816
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: Gulfstream V Flight Training

Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:31 pm

Part of any flight training program includes stall recovery but jets are not "stalled" in the sense that your 172 is. We practice stall recognition and recovery which would be the equivalent of recovering at the stall buffet. Recognizing an imminent stall and proper recovery technique is required. Not recognizing the imminent stall and entering a full stall would be grounds for failure during a pilot flight check.

Most large jets have an artificial "stick shaker" to warn the pilot of approaching stall. Stick shaker is followed by a mechanical "stick pusher" to push the nose over BEFORE the plane enters an aerodynamic stall. Many high performance swept wing jets are difficult or impossible to recover from a full stall so the pusher is there as a last resort. Of course if your stall is near the ground, as is usually the case, this "pusher" business can get rather exciting in a hurry. The pusher can be overridden by the pilot in case of malfunction so one could ignore the shaker, override the pusher, and enter a stall. As a result you now have become a test pilot and a positive outcome is doubtful.

Incidently, as a result of recent well publicized accidents like the BUF Q400 and AF 447, the stall recovery technique has been amended...at least the FAA version has. For years we have been trained to power out of an imminent stall and try not to lose any altitude. Now we are taught to return to the 172 way of doing things....lower the nose as we power up and take the load off the wings to increase the margin from stall.

[Edited 2012-07-25 05:37:09]
 
imiakhtar
Posts: 611
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:35 am

RE: Gulfstream V Flight Training

Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:06 pm

Quoting Jawed (Thread starter):
Separately, what are the steps one would have to take to transition from very beginner (in a Cessna 172) all the way to a Gulfstream V?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. PPL with instrument rating, multi engine rating and then CPL followed by ATPL. Finally, you'll need a gulfstream type rating. In 2006, a flight school my uncle worked at as a Dassault instructor was charging $50k for a falcon rating. Prices will probably have risen since then and I doubt you'd get much change out of $70k. But then again, something tells me you could afford it.  
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
 
26point2
Posts: 816
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: Gulfstream V Flight Training

Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:22 pm

That is a road map for the professional pilot, however, an individual could get trained and typed in a GV or a 747 with a PPL. No ATP is required (by the FAA at least). Instrument and MEL are required.

Yes, the cost of a GV, GLEX, etc type rating is still about $50k. 21 day course. You can get an FAA B-737 type rating for $7k or a B-747 rating for about $10k. A bargain!
 
RaginMav
Posts: 335
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 5:22 am

RE: Gulfstream V Flight Training

Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:40 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 1):
Now we are taught to return to the 172 way of doing things....lower the nose as we power up and take the load off the wings to increase the margin from stall.


As it always should have been. That 'relax back-pressure on the yoke and power out of it' business drove me crazy. It's almost like in the quest to ensure "minimum loss of altitude" we forgot it's exceeding critical AoA that will kill you, not the low airspeed situation.

Quoting Jawed (Thread starter):
Separately, what are the steps one would have to take to transition from very beginner (in a Cessna 172) all the way to a Gulfstream V?
imiakhtar's explanation is a typical progression for a professional pilot. 26point2 is also correct that you technically only need PPL with MEL to fly it. Heck, is an instrument rating even required? Maybe I want to fly my personal G-V around VFR at 17,500? And I think you would need a high altitude endorsement, right?

Here are some examples of the minimum qualifications needed and the privileges you would be allowed to exercise, in increasing order of complexity:

1. To act as SIC on a G-V you own. VFR flights in US Only:
-Private Pilot License: Airplane, Multi-Engine Land
-High Altitude Endorsement
-Comply with FAR 61.55 (Second-in-Command Qualifications)
-Third Class Medical

2. To act as SIC on a G-V you own. VFR flights internationally.
-Same as above plus and 'SIC type rating' on your certificate. Basically that means you have to comply with 61.55, document it, go to the local FSDO and have them issue you a temporary certificate with the SIC type rating.

3. SIC on a G-V you own. International IFR flights
-Private Pilot License: Airplane, Multi-Engine Land with Instrument Rating
-High Altitude Endorsement
-SIC Type Rating
-Third Class Medical

4. PIC on a G-V you own. International IFR Flights
-Private Pilot License: Airplane, Multi-Engine Land with Instrument Rating
-PIC Type Rating (This is the $50k training spoken of previously)
-Comply with the provisions of 61.58 (Pilot-in-Command Proficiency Check: Operation of aircraft requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember)
-Third Class Medical

5. SIC on a G-V someone else owns (not charter/135). International VFR Flights.
-Commercial Pilot License: Airplane, Multi-Engine Land
-High Altitude Endorsement
-SIC Type rating
-Second Class Medical

6. SIC on a G-V someone else owns (not charter/135). International IFR Flights.
-Commercial Pilot License: Airplane, Multi-Engine Land, Instrument Rating
-High Altitude Endorsement
-SIC Type rating
-Second Class Medical

7. PIC on a G-V someone else owns (not charter/135). International IFR Flights.
-Commercial Pilot License: Airplane, Multi-Engine Land, Instrument Rating
-PIC Type rating
-Comply with the provisions of 61.58 (Pilot-in-Command Proficiency Check: Operation of aircraft requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember)
-Second Class Medical

8. SIC on a G-V in Charter/135 operations. International IFR Flights.
-Commercial Pilot License: Airplane, Multi-Engine Land, Instrument Rating
-High Altitude Endorsement
-SIC Type rating
-Comply with appropriate provisions of the various 135 training and checking regs, such as 135.293, .329, .331 etc.
-Second Class Medical

9. PIC on a G-V in Charter/135 operations. International IFR Flights.
-Airline Transport License Airplane, Multi-Engine Land
-PIC Type rating
-Comply with appropriate provisions of the various 135 training and checking regs, such as 135.293, .297, .299 .329, .331 etc.
-First Class Medical

All those words and a dollar can get you a cup of coffee. Or at least it could 15 years ago. Have fun.

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