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jetmech
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747 D Check Documentary

Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:06 pm

G'day All,

I happened to find this video on Youtube. Quite an interesting documentary about a BA 744 D check.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yHtfGH0nI&feature=share

Regards, JetMech
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Stitch
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:31 pm

I saw it shortly after it aired last month on BBC. Very interesting and informative.
 
SAAFNAV
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:25 am

I watched it last night.

Very interesting and good quality.. And mostly without the normal sensationalism of American programs.

Erich
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jetmech
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:22 am

Quoting saafnav (Reply 2):

I agree; it was great to see this type of program without superfluous hype or patronising explanations.

Regards, JetMech
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747classic
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:33 am

Nice video, but is it not required anymore to perform a test flight after a (744) D-check. Within my company (KL) it was always required to perform a test-flight (with a full cockpit crew + flight test engineer) , because not all flight modes can be simulated 100% on the ground.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:41 am

Yeah, that was great. I remember reading about this a few weeks back when it aired. Sure am glad someone UL'd it to Youtube. I also agree that it was very good that they didn't use all manner of noises/gags/effects/personal drama stories that certainly would have been the case if it had been made here. Well done beeb.
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jetmech
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:32 am

Quoting 747classic (Reply 4):

I'm not sure about the status of check flights these days, but I think they are a great idea. My first employer never performed test flights after D checks. The only time I witnessed a test flight was after working on a 747SP which was having major problems with its aileron / spoiler system. We spent four whole days with another crew re-rigging the entire system, so I could certainly see the need for a test flight in this case. The only aircraft I was aware of that routinely performed test flights after heavy maintenance was the RAAF 707.

Regards, JetMech
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HAWK21M
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:42 am

Amazing video.....Looks def one of the 1st filming permission during a Check D.
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sweair
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:52 am

Brilliant show, the scale of things is just amazing, most people don't realize how complex airplanes are under its skin. Thumbs up for British people, I love the attitude.
 
SAAFNAV
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:02 pm

In the Air Force, you have to do a Test Flight after maintenance on major flight controls. We also do systems checks after maintenance/repairs on Undercarriage and engine.

After a Major Service (which is about the same as D Check), we do a 4 hour check flight..

Erich
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CRJ900
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:41 pm

Absolutely love documentaries like these, keeps my love for aviation intact  

It is very good to know that aircraft are taken such good care of, let us hope that it never changes, though as discussed in another tech/ops thread - MROs are struggling to find and keep god mechanics because they don't want to pay them more, and so mechanics leave for other jobs. It will be interesting to see how this develops during the next few years.
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Max Q
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:31 am

Fascinating.


Isn't there a way that D checks can be avoided now, with sort of 'heavy' C checks done more often ?
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:05 am

Max,

Yes and no. Many can be (and indeed are) "rolled" into C, B, engine B, A, weekly, and service checks. However, there are some items that require NDT that are nigh on impossible to get to without removing large assemblies and/or airframe sections. It's still best to group these together (especially when their time outs are already closely synched) into a D check or HMV.
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tdscanuck
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:29 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 11):
Isn't there a way that D checks can be avoided now, with sort of 'heavy' C checks done more often ?

It all depends on what maintenance program the airplane was certified under. The MSG-3 system doesn't absolutely require D-checks. Some aircraft done since the 747-400 don't have D's at all (pure MSG-3 airplanes don't actually have required letter checks, although many are operated that way).

But, once you've certified with D checks in the maintenance plan, it's a huge amount of work to engineer them out. Most of the time, it's not worth it.

Tom.
 
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:26 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 13):

It all depends on what maintenance program the airplane was certified under. The MSG-3 system doesn't absolutely require D-checks. Some aircraft done since the 747-400 don't have D's at all (pure MSG-3 airplanes don't actually have required letter checks, although many are operated that way).

But, once you've certified with D checks in the maintenance plan, it's a huge amount of work to engineer them out. Most of the time, it's not worth it.

What is the MSG3 system ?


And another question, I get the impression there are fewer and fewer facilities in N America these days capable of doing a D check on a widebody. Is this true ?
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jetmech
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:40 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 14):
What is the MSG3 system

Maintenance Steering Group 3. From what I know, the MSG system aims to replace rigidly defined maintenance periods with an on condition system. Here are some links on the subject.

MSG-3 Maintenance Planning System (by MD11Engineer Feb 22 2009 in Tech Ops)
http://www.aviationtoday.com/am/cate...bga/Understanding-MSG-3_33062.html

There is an MSG document on the net which details the workings of the system, but I can't seem to find it. Wikipedia has no info either   .

Quoting saafnav (Reply 9):

Fair enough. I always wondered why we didn't do test flights after D checks, but then again, we never seemed to encounter problems from not doing them.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 10):

I was most impressed by the fact that BA seemed to keep all maintenance functions in-house at their facility in Wales. Escape slides, toilets, seats, engines, IFE, avionics etc., it all seemed to be done in the one facility.

Regards, JetMech
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:02 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 14):


And another question, I get the impression there are fewer and fewer facilities in N America these days capable of doing a D check on a widebody. Is this true ?

There's about to be one fewer, when US.. I mean AA closes the AFW MRO. But to answer your question, yes, there are fewer stations specializing in this these days. There are still facilities throughout the US, and more than people think, but the fact is that more and more of this work is going overseas or to central america, where it can be done cheaper. As with anything, the quality and timeliness of the work does vary, but it gets the job done for the airlines this way. In fact, there are many airlines in this country who no longer even do their own C checks, however most of this is still outsourced locally...


Again, this was an awesome show, & I think it's really great BBC didn't try to ham it up.

Also, be sure to check these out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ODDjsK0BOg&feature=related

"How to build a Nuclear Submarine"

And if you ever want to know what the "real" Red October is like....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSDYOdQ9YiQ&feature=related

This whole series is great...
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HAWK21M
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:02 am

Quoting jetmech (Reply 15):
Fair enough. I always wondered why we didn't do test flights after D checks, but then again, we never seemed to encounter problems from not doing them.

Out here post Check D, there is a Test flight carried out.......before the Aircraft gets back into service.
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deltal1011man
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:33 am

Quoting 747classic (Reply 4):

could be that the flight back to LHR is the test flight. I would think any problems could be worked out by BA at LHR.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 14):

And another question, I get the impression there are fewer and fewer facilities in N America these days capable of doing a D check on a widebody. Is this true ?

Well, some place *can* do them but don't. Delta could do HMVs in Atlanta and maybe MSP but doesn't do them. UA at SFO should be able to do them. I think AA does them on the 777s at TUL. (soon to be in China)

The thing is HKG and PEK are the favorite spots. Will stay that way till the government fixes this mess.
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:29 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 18):
The thing is HKG and PEK are the favorite spots. Will stay that way till the government fixes this mess.

AFAIK, CX does most heavy maintenance in Xiamen... Certainly all their cabin upgrades. So much for HKG.
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AAosm
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:06 am

After watching this video it all looks like what I see everyday at work. This was a good show and did a pretty darn good job at showing what it's like on one of these getting a heavy check. I only get to see 767/777 getting heavy checks.
 
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:00 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
AFAIK, CX does most heavy maintenance in Xiamen... Certainly all their cabin upgrades.

He asked about North America, So I'm talking about North American carriers.
DL and CO have HMVs done by HAECO.
UA has work done in PEK by AMECO. The UA 747 work was done in ICN but i believe it has also moved to AMECO.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
So much for HKG.

errr. So much for CX being in North America...
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:27 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 21):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
AFAIK, CX does most heavy maintenance in Xiamen... Certainly all their cabin upgrades.

He asked about North America, So I'm talking about North American carriers.

Point, but I was pointing out that HKG is hardly your "outsourcing haven" anymore for any industry. Hasn't been for a decade. It is a very highly developed, high salary marketplace.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 21):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
So much for HKG.

errr. So much for CX being in North America...

Again, I was pointing out that PEK and HKG are very very different places. It's like comparing NYC and Mexico City...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
AFAIK, CX does most heavy maintenance in Xiamen... Certainly all their cabin upgrades. So much for HKG.

Quite a few CX planes at HAECO last week.

Virgin is reconfiguring their 744 fleet there too.

Of course UA/CO is cycling their 767 fleet though too.
 
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting jetmech (Reply 15):
I was most impressed by the fact that BA seemed to keep all maintenance functions in-house at their facility in Wales. Escape slides, toilets, seats, engines, IFE, avionics etc., it all seemed to be done in the one facility.

Actually different facilities, but close together, and all owned by BA except the engine shop.
Once the engine needs more than powerplant work, it goes to GE, which is also in Wales and just down the road.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 18):
could be that the flight back to LHR is the test flight. I would think any problems could be worked out by BA at LHR.

It is not a test flight, and an ordinary crew flies it, but occasionaly they will find a problem that needs fixing. But the aircraft is scheduled out of LHR the same evening.

The A320 and B734 operate scheduled pax service when they leave GLA D checks. The B734 may have had a manual reversion test flight before, but only if necessary due elevator of aileron work.
 
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:26 am

Quoting jetmech (Thread starter):

Jetmech, I have a bone to pick with you: I stayed up too late last night watching this and it's ALL YOUR FAULT!  

Really cool documentary.

I have a question: The documentary crew flew to Cardiff on the 744. They are not BA personnel. How did they manage this without violating some regulation? Was it technically a "revenue flight" that wasn't listed on teh website? Is there some way to bend the regulations to allow a film crew aboard without needing an F/A?

Oh, and only because I know you'll all be disappointed in me if I don't comment: The host (not the one with the John Lennon hair) is really hot.  
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tdscanuck
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:51 am

Quoting jetmech (Reply 15):
From what I know, the MSG system aims to replace rigidly defined maintenance periods with an on condition system.

MSG-3 is somewhat independent of the shift to on-condition maintenance (although that shift is definitely happening). MSG-3 basically tries to identify an interval for each individual task (flight hours, cycles, calendar hours, or some combination thereof) and then allow the operators to "bucket" the tasks together as they see fit.

An operator who doesn't like taking their airplanes out of service can build little nightly packages that, added up, prevent the airplane from going out of service completely for months (but you need to do some work every night). At the opposite end, you can ignore it completely for about a week then take it down for a day and repeat ad naseum.

Quoting jetmech (Reply 15):
I always wondered why we didn't do test flights after D checks

This is a constant source of frustration between the OEM's and the airlines; there are no maintenance tasks that *require* a flight test. Some airlines think there should be and they press the OEM's to define the criteria but the OEM's 1) don't believe it's necessary and 2) don't want to piss off the airlines that don't want to do them by including it in the basic certification programs.

The short short version of why you don't have to do a flight test is that it's a design criteria for the maintenance tasks that you have to be able to tell if the airplane is ready to fly before you actually fly it.

Tom.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
The documentary crew flew to Cardiff on the 744. They are not BA personnel. How did they manage this without violating some regulation?

It wasn't a scheduled revenue flight so it doesn't have to be operated under whatever the CAA equivalent to FAA Part 121 is. There is no regulation for an F/A in that situation.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
Is there some way to bend the regulations to allow a film crew aboard without needing an F/A?

Once you're not flying revenue passengers the rules loosen way up. You just need someone onboard to be in charge of cabin safety (typically a non-pilot member of the crew). There is no requirement for an F/A. I think I've only flown with an F/A less than 5% of the time (I don't fly under Part 121) even though we always have non-flight crew onboard.

Tom.
 
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:42 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 18):
I think AA does them on the 777s at TUL. (soon to be in China)

Not quite...they are currently done at AFW and will eventually move overseas. No one has said anything about China specifically yet.

The 767s are also done at AFW, but it is rumored that they will move to TUL once the base in Texas closes.
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jetmech
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:23 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 24):
Once the engine needs more than powerplant work, it goes to GE, which is also in Wales and just down the road.

Is this the facility GE purchased as part of the deal for BA to selected GE's for their first batch of 777's?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 25):
Jetmech, I have a bone to pick with you: I stayed up too late last night watching this and it's ALL YOUR FAULT!

I'm glad to see the documentary held your interest! About the only major task they did not show was a landing gear change and paint stripping of the fuselage. It would also have been interesting to see some of the work involved in the strut mod, but this aircraft already appeared to have had the work done.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 26):
An operator who doesn't like taking their airplanes out of service can build little nightly packages that, added up, prevent the airplane from going out of service completely for months (but you need to do some work every night). At the opposite end, you can ignore it completely for about a week then take it down for a day and repeat ad naseum.

The philosophy of MSG 3 certainly makes sense. It seems like it would be something that the airline themselves would need to implement.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 26):
The short short version of why you don't have to do a flight test is that it's a design criteria for the maintenance tasks that you have to be able to tell if the airplane is ready to fly before you actually fly it.

Fair enough. It's good to see that things are made to be this way. Although we never did test flights, I do remember the last fortnight of many D checks being nothing but function test after function test after function test......made the hangar a very noisy place!

Regards, JetMech
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Starlionblue
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:09 am

I was very impressed with this docu, but one thing really astounded me.

THEY EXPLAINED LIFT CORRECTLY!!! You can tell they are engineers because right off the bat they stated that Bernouilli was not sufficient, and that F=ma rules.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
tdscanuck
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:00 pm

Quoting jetmech (Reply 29):
The philosophy of MSG 3 certainly makes sense. It seems like it would be something that the airline themselves would need to implement.

It's a joint effort. MSG-3 programs are put together by the OEMs and airlines working together. The OEM's need to make sure the intervals are all correct, task-by-task, and that the dependencies are all correct. The airlines need to package them to suit their operations. Some OEM's sell maintenance planning as a value-added service for those airlines that can't or don't want to do the heavy lifting themselves.

Tom.
 
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:12 pm

Quoting jetmech (Reply 29):
Is this the facility GE purchased as part of the deal for BA to selected GE's for their first batch of 777's?

Yes.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 24):
Actually different facilities, but close together, and all owned by BA except the engine shop.
Once the engine needs more than powerplant work, it goes to GE, which is also in Wales and just down the road.

This press release only mentions the CFM56 and RB211-524. Is GE contracted for MRO of the V2500 and Trent 800 too?

EVENDALE, Ohio - British Airways has agreed to a $2.3 billion engine maintenance contract with General Electric Company (GE), making it one of the largest engineering contracts awarded in the airline's history

Under the 10-year agreement, GE will be responsible for the maintenance, overhaul and repair for British Airways' RB211-524 and CFM56 engines. The Rolls-Royce RB211 engines power the airline's 57 Boeing 747s and 21 767s. The CFM56 engines power the airline's 34 Boeing 737s and 10 Airbus A320s. The CFM56 engines are produced by CFM International, a 50/50 joint company of GE and Snecma.


http://www.geaviation.com/press/services/services_20051208.html
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SAAFNAV
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:38 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 30):

THEY EXPLAINED LIFT CORRECTLY!!! You can tell they are engineers because right off the bat they stated that Bernouilli was not sufficient, and that F=ma rules.

I see it as light: It's a wave, it's a particle. Use whichever gives the correct answer for your situation!  

When we did basic aerodynamics relating to Bernoulli, I asked about inverted flight. Uhms and ahs all around.

Erich
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tdscanuck
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:45 pm

Quoting saafnav (Reply 33):
When we did basic aerodynamics relating to Bernoulli, I asked about inverted flight. Uhms and ahs all around.

There's nothing wrong with Bernoulli, even related to inverted flight. The problem is the explanation of *why* the air speeds up. It's the (totally wrong) equal transit time debacle that's the problem, not Bernoulli.

Tom.
 
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:32 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 34):
There's nothing wrong with Bernoulli, even related to inverted flight. The problem is the explanation of *why* the air speeds up. It's the (totally wrong) equal transit time debacle that's the problem, not Bernoulli.

  

The expression I stole for this is that Bernouilli is "correct but incomplete" as an explanation of lift. Besides, starting with F=ma is a much simpler to explain it to a layman.

- First explain that lift is produced by the wing displacing air downwards.
- Once you've done that, explain through which mechanisms (not only Bernouilli).

Way more intuitive than starting with Bernouilli and then having to deal with smart-alecks who mention inverted flight. 
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SAAFNAV
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:29 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 35):

Way more intuitive than starting with Bernouilli and then having to deal with smart-alecks who mention inverted flight.

Ah cheap shot! Had to make it interesting! 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 747 D Check Documentary

Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:42 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 35):
Way more intuitive than starting with Bernouilli and then having to deal with smart-alecks who mention inverted flight.

Similiar to a debate we had at work the other day.....went on inconclusive.....
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