rw774477
Topic Author
Posts: 1013
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2001 4:15 am

B-1 Flight Vs C-1 Flight

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:00 pm

Why the different designations ?

is b-1 first flight -what about delivery flights ?

rw774477
 
User avatar
RobK
Posts: 3232
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:43 pm

RE: B-1 Flight Vs C-1 Flight

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:02 pm

B = Boeing. C = Customer. Delivery would be a 'C' flight obviously.   
 
cargolex
Posts: 1201
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:20 pm

RE: B-1 Flight Vs C-1 Flight

Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:38 pm

B1 is the first flight.

C1 is the first customer acceptance flight.

Delivery flights are operated by the airline after they have taken possession of the aircraft - almost always under a special flight number for the ferry flight. For example ANA9397 is a number used commonly on the delivery flight of ANA wide bodies. Technically it isn't a "delivery" so much as the customer coming to collect the aircraft and fly it to their base of operations with their own crew.

It's a little more confusing for BBJ's and military aircraft as those don't go through the same process, but this is how it goes for Airlines.
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1256
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: B-1 Flight Vs C-1 Flight

Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:00 pm

Who pays for the fuel on a C flight?
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: B-1 Flight Vs C-1 Flight

Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:38 pm

Quoting aircellist (Reply 3):
Who pays for the fuel on a C flight?

Boeing. The C-1 flights are still operating under Boeing's Production Certificate and not the airlines' operating certificate. The flight is conducted according to Boeing rules, with Boeing pilots on board in addition to pilots (sometimes) from the airline. Some airlines designate Boeing to conduct the C-1 flight without them.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
User avatar
RobK
Posts: 3232
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:43 pm

RE: B-1 Flight Vs C-1 Flight

Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting cargolex (Reply 2):
Delivery flights are operated by the airline after they have taken possession of the aircraft

Not necessarily. Some airlines use an aircraft delivery contractor to get the plane home. Up until a few years ago all the HNA Group aircraft were ferried to China by Global Aircraft Delivery at Seattle. I think HNA use their own crews now, though.
 
Ronaldo747
Posts: 273
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:58 pm

RE: B-1 Flight Vs C-1 Flight

Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:56 pm

What means "EWA" flight, read it somestimes on Matt Cawby's blog. It that kind of "troubleshooting" during flight? Thanks for clarification.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: B-1 Flight Vs C-1 Flight

Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:51 am

Quoting RobK (Reply 1):
Delivery would be a 'C' flight obviously.

Generally not. Delivery flights take place after delivery...so they're not Boeing flights anymore.

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 6):
What means "EWA" flight, read it somestimes on Matt Cawby's blog.

It means they're doing a flight test beyond the production checkout. They come up really commonly whenever a new cabin configuration or IFE upgrade comes out.

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 6):
It that kind of "troubleshooting" during flight?

No. Troubleshooting a problem with a specific airplane falls within the B-x and C-x flights (that's what they're for). An EWA flight is a pre-planned flight test for some purpose beyond the production flights and squawk resolution.

Tom.
 
User avatar
RobK
Posts: 3232
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:43 pm

RE: B-1 Flight Vs C-1 Flight

Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:56 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 7):
Generally not. Delivery flights take place after delivery...so they're not Boeing flights anymore.

Umm, isn't that what I said...
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23203
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: B-1 Flight Vs C-1 Flight

Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:52 pm

A customer delivery flight would be operating under the airline's Operating Certificate, not Boeing's, correct? So per Roseflyer, it would not be a "C" flight.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: B-1 Flight Vs C-1 Flight

Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting RobK (Reply 8):
Umm, isn't that what I said...

You said delivery was a C flight:

Quoting RobK (Reply 1):
Delivery would be a 'C' flight obviously

A C-x flight is operated by Boeing under Boeing procedures before delivery. A delivery flight is not counted as a C-x flight.

Tom.
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: B-1 Flight Vs C-1 Flight

Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
A customer delivery flight would be operating under the airline's Operating Certificate, not Boeing's, correct? So per Roseflyer, it would not be a "C" flight.

Yes Stitch you are correct. Delivery flight is not under the Boeing Production Certificate. In general, Boeing can't fly an airplane after the ticket has been transferred from Production to Operating without temporary registration.

C flights are Boeing flights under the production certificate. The production certificate allows customer airline pilots to fly the airplane. The term customer flight is a bit of a misnomer. The airline's operating certificate typically does not allow Boeing pilots to be in command of the plane without special approval. Tom can probably correct me.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: B-1 Flight Vs C-1 Flight

Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:55 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 11):
The airline's operating certificate typically does not allow Boeing pilots to be in command of the plane without special approval. Tom can probably correct me.

Nothing to correct...I'm not aware of any ops spec that would allow a Boeing pilot to be PIC when operating under the airline's operating certificate.

That said, being the PIC of record and being the functional pilot in command aren't really the same thing...there is nothing to stop an airline putting up a flight under their Ops Spec with an OEM pilot actually doing the flying. This is pretty normal for post-delivery flight testing.

Tom.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests