NWAROOSTER
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Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:34 am

Does anyone have any idea what aircraft engines Delta currently overhauls and where they are done? Delta operates Pratt and Whitney P2000, Boeing 757, and P4000 engines, Boeing 747-400 and Airbus A330. It also has the CFM-56 engines which power their 737s and Airbus A319 and A320 aircraft. Then there are the 767, 777, and now the MD-90 aircraft. Of course the MD-80s and DC-9-50s have the JT8D series engines. Does Delta do overhaul maintenance on other airline' engines whether or not it is an engine that Delta operates?
Delta still has an engine shop at MSP, along with, I assume an engine shop in ATL.
Also, does Delta outsource any of it's engines for overhaul?  old 

[Edited 2012-08-23 17:37:40]
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burnsie28
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:40 am

Last I thought they were already doing so, I have seen a lot of parts for other carriers, I remember SY signed some deal a few years ago.

There is a very large engine shop in ATL, not sure how big the MSP one is.
 
steex
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:45 am

I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was initially excited to see the the terms "Delta," "IT," and "Overhaul" in the same thread title!

It's still nice to see DL doing significant engine work in-house, though.
 
B757Forever
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:47 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Thread starter):
Does Delta do overhaul maintenance on other airline' engines whether or not it is an engine that Delta operates?


Delta does lots of in-sourced engine work, but only on engines types they operate. I have not seen any numbers this year, but in 2010, approximately 40% of engines coming out of the shops were customer engines.
The engines overhauled in-house are:
PW JT8D-219
CFM 56-5 and -7
PW2000
PW4000
GE CF6-80A
GE CF6-80C3 B6F
GE CF-34 as used on the RJ.

The engines that are sent out are the Trent, GE90, V2500 and the GE CF6-80C3 B8F (767-400 engine). I honestly don't know where the PW JT8s are done for the remaining DC9 aircraft.

[Edited 2012-08-23 17:55:54]
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AirframeAS
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:52 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Thread starter):
Does Delta do overhaul maintenance on other airline' engines whether or not it is an engine that Delta operates?

I thought AA was the one that does this..... Correct me if I am wrong.....
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deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:53 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Thread starter):

errr....
Delta does its PW4000/2000, CF6, CFM56-3/5/7, CF34 and 219s. (JT8s)

Delta sends out the GE90, V2500, T800(to American) and will be sending the BMW engine out. (717)

For the NWA fleet i have no idea what is/isn't done. Not sure if they have started doing there 2037s, 4000s, or JT8s.

Note the CF34 is the RJ engine. Its nothing but 3rd party work. IIRC its the only CF34 shop in the US.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Thread starter):
Delta still has an engine shop at MSP, along with, I assume an engine shop in ATL.
ATL has the engine shop and 5 test cells. (1 for APUs only)
MSP has 2 test cells(I think) and a smaller engine shop.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Thread starter):
Does Delta do overhaul maintenance on other airline' engines whether or not it is an engine that Delta operates?

Yes. Its TechOps biggest money maker. Off the top of my head I can think of, HA, Atlas, GOL, AS, UPS, FX, AM and others.

[Edited 2012-08-23 17:54:39]
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:25 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 5):
Yes. Its TechOps biggest money maker. Off the top of my head I can think of, HA, Atlas, GOL, AS, UPS, FX, AM and others.



In addition to the U.S. Navy's C-40s and some other foreign carriers.
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FI642
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:27 am

They did a lot of work for World airways....
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airbuske
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:55 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 5):
Its TechOps biggest money maker

Only in the eye of the public.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 5):
Not sure if they have started doing there 2037s, 4000s, or JT8s

PW4056/4168 was brought back in house. Delta was trying to in source the PMNW PW2037 engines but I believe there were some contractual issues with PW that needed to be overcome first. Don't know where this stands now. I can't remember about the JT8Ds.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:20 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 6):

you know, I don't know if they do the engine overhauls(CFM56-7s) or not. I know they do air frame stuff.

Quoting airbuske (Reply 8):
Only in the eye of the public.

err huh? Engine is what is bringing in the money. Sadly the Airframe side has lost more contract work lately then what has been brought in.

Quoting FI642 (Reply 7):

They did but lost it to PIMCO I believe(aren't both companies in BK?) also lost North American.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 3):
GE CF6-80C3 B8F

Really? How much difference is their between the B6F and B8F?

I just can't see what the difference would be that it can't be done in house.
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:40 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 9):
you know, I don't know if they do the engine overhauls(CFM56-7s) or not. I know they do air frame stuff.

That was going to be my question. I know they did A stuff for them including some form of their PSVs? Not sure if that included the powerplants. Maybe the military sends all their engines to the OEM.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 5):
IIRC its the only CF34 shop in the US.

So, DL TechOPS is the only MRO in the US that works on the these? Everyone sends them to either DL or outside the US? That's pretty cool..
What gets measured gets done.
 
gigneil
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:52 am

Quoting B757forever (Reply 3):
Delta does lots of in-sourced engine work, but only on engines types they operate.

Well that makes sense  
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 10):
So, DL TechOPS is the only MRO in the US that works on the these? Everyone sends them to either DL or outside the US? That's pretty cool..

And is almost certainly not true. There's no way that DL is the only maintainer of an American engine flown by the thousands in the US.

I can't prove it either way. But I'd like to see proof that its the case.

NS
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:58 am

Quoting B757forever (Reply 3):
The engines overhauled in-house are:
Quoting B757forever (Reply 3):
GE CF6-80C3 B6F
Quoting B757forever (Reply 3):
The engines that are sent out are the
Quoting B757forever (Reply 3):
GE CF6-80C3 B8F

Why would that be? Those engines can't be very different. Is it a contractual thing?
 
gigneil
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:17 am

They're practically identical, so I am also confused.


NS
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:30 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 10):
Maybe the military sends all their engines to the OEM.

Or some other MRO or does them in house.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 10):

So, DL TechOPS is the only MRO in the US that works on the these? Everyone sends them to either DL or outside the US? That's pretty cool..

for a completely out of fleet engine too. From what I remember they pretty much do all the big RJ operators OHs.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 11):

I can't prove it either way. But I'd like to see proof that its the case.

I'll have to work on that one. (and i did say IIRC. so i may be wrong....)

Quoting gigneil (Reply 11):
There's no way that DL is the only maintainer of an American engine flown by the thousands in the US.

.....not counting the OEM FWIW.

Ok a little bit of googling has brought me to this, http://www.mymroservices.com/mro_services_products/engines_cf34
It lists Delta TechOps and StandardAero as the only two in the US that does OHs on CF34 engines. (again not counting GE) ( Dallas Airmotive says in the remarks that they do OHs but going to there web site it doesn't list any certs for the CF34.)
Looking at SrandardAero web page it says they do the CF34 work in Winnipeg. So if that is true then so far it look like its just TechOps as the MRO. I will keep digging though.


and just for the record I can think of a few engines that don't(that I know of) have a MRO in the US. GE90 and V2500s both come to mind.(and yes I know they aren't as popular as the CF34....just pointing that out)

[Edited 2012-08-24 01:37:33]
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deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:54 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):

I forgot to add.
AA has a joint company with Rolls. TAESL

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...AFQjCNEgzO7RMvmW476DG58JdDyL8Ot_PQ

They do RB211-535s and RR Trent 800s.

They happen to do Delta's T800s. I believe they also do CO's RB211 overhauls.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 11):
Well that makes sense

even though being able to go out to the Test cell and see something like a Trent 700(does anyone have any in the US?) or maybe something real odd like a Russian engine would be pretty cool.......burn money....but cool to see.
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DL_Mech
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:38 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 12):
Why would that be? Those engines can't be very different. Is it a contractual thing?

The B8F engine is not just a data plug/software change from the B6F. DL sends them to Evergreen in Taiwan, I'm sure it was not worth the investment for a small subfleet of approx. 45 engines. It also looks like there is a contractural agreement as well.

http://atwonline.com/operations-main...llion-deals-pratt-mesa-others-0309

http://www.geaviation.com/press/cf6/cf6_20000724.html

[Edited 2012-08-24 03:46:21]
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maddogjt8d
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:32 am

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 16):
The B8F engine is not just a data plug/software change from the B6F. DL sends them to Evergreen in Taiwan, I'm sure it was not worth the investment for a small subfleet of approx. 45 engines. It also looks like there is a contractural agreement as well.

Very interesting, I always thought the B6F and B8F were just a plug change and were very similar, thanks for bringing this to light.

How about overhauls for the B6 vs. the B6F? I'm referring to those CF6's on the ex-GF 767's which I think are non-FADEC. Surely that must be a small subfleet of engines as well.

I'd also be very curious to see where the JT8's on the DC-9's are done.
 
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:36 pm

The JT8's were done in the old ATL Northwest Hangar, also MSP used to work on them, so I think if I remember correctly that work just all shifted up to MSP, but that was with NWA so Delta could have totally done something different.
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DL_Mech
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting MaddogJT8D (Reply 17):
How about overhauls for the B6 vs. the B6F? I'm referring to those CF6's on the ex-GF 767's which I think are non-FADEC. Surely that must be a small subfleet of engines as well.

I think the B6 is done in house. The main difference between the two is the mechanical connection from throttle to engine. I do know that there is a spare B6 engine for just those six airplanes.

Quoting MaddogJT8D (Reply 17):
I'd also be very curious to see where the JT8's on the DC-9's are done.

I think that they are done in South America or AeroThrust in Florida.

Quoting HermansCVR580 (Reply 18):
that work just all shifted up to MSP, but that was with NWA so Delta could have totally done something different.

I don't know if any engine shops are left at MSP.
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HermansCVR580
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:33 pm

Is Building C in MSP engine shop still in use or has it been shuttered since the merger?
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n901wa
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:48 pm

I was just up in MSPs eng shop. ( not sure what the building number is, but I think it was C ) They are still running. They were doing build up on the V2500s that were arriving from overhaul, and Not sure what P/W 2000 work is done there, but they had one in the Test cell, when I was there.

Deltal1011man, Im with you. I just got back from RR school in Derby, and they had a Trent 800 in the Cell , and I would have loved to see that run. They also had a RB-211-524 off a 1011, but not in Running shape.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 14):
Ok a little bit of googling has brought me to this, http://www.mymroservices.com/mro_services_products/engines_cf34
It lists Delta TechOps and StandardAero as the only two in the US that does OHs on CF34 engines. (again not counting GE) ( Dallas Airmotive says in the remarks that they do OHs but going to there web site it doesn't list any certs for the CF34.)
Looking at SrandardAero web page it says they do the CF34 work in Winnipeg. So if that is true then so far it look like its just TechOps as the MRO. I will keep digging though.

Thanks for that..that is pretty interesting. I remember back in high school I was in a science club and we took a field trip to Tech OPS and we went through the engine shop. They were running up a 757 engine in that huge engine bay. You could feel the steel doors vibrating the entire time and a slight his sound creeping through the cracks in the door seals. They also had some RJ engines on stands outside the bay being worked on.
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:16 pm

Quoting n901wa (Reply 21):

I was just up in MSPs eng shop. ( not sure what the building number is, but I think it was C ) They are still running. They were doing build up on the V2500s that were arriving from overhaul, and Not sure what P/W 2000 work is done there, but they had one in the Test cell, when I was there.

When I worked at Northwest after the merger with Republic, I think the Republic engines were sent over to what became Building B where Northwest had a much larger engine shop. Delta has since torn down all the old Northwest hangers except for Hangers 6 and 7. Everything else that was north of the engine shop, including the stock room and what was called the "GO" or general offices has been gone for several years.
I am curious as to how much of what is left of the engine shop, welding shop and machine shop which have not be torn down is actually used. Building B, or what is left of it is immediately west of the rood leading into the Airport's Main Terminal. I have been hearing rumours that Delta is thinking about tearing down the old Northwest Hangers 6 and 7.
Hanger 7 was used for 747 heavy checks, while Hanger 6 was used for overnight checks and other maintenance on 747s and DC-10s, along with anything else that would fit in it.
The hangers and "GO" that were torn down was done to supposedly expand what was called the Gold Concourse. I do not know what they call it now. I personally think there was more to the reason given as to why these buildings were torn down.   
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PresRDC
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:38 pm

Pratt would love every airline to do its own wrench turning, but to contract with it on an exclusive basis for the supply of new spare parts, used serviceable spare parts and part repairs.

Wrench turining is low margin work that only makes sense as a way to capture the lucrative parts and repair work.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 19):

I don't know if any engine shops are left at MSP.

I don't think they do any overhauls. I do know that....for now....they plan on keep what engine assets they have left in MSP. The test cell may come in hand one day.

Quoting n901wa (Reply 21):

Deltal1011man, Im with you. I just got back from RR school in Derby, and they had a Trent 800 in the Cell , and I would have loved to see that run. They also had a RB-211-524 off a 1011, but not in Running shape.

Getting some rolls work in LA? Hope everything is well out west!

and i think id rather see the 524 run over a Trent. Miss those bad boys.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 22):

Its always cool to see them run. Its been a while since ive see anything run out there.
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HermansCVR580
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 25):
I don't think they do any overhauls. I do know that....for now....they plan on keep what engine assets they have left in MSP. The test cell may come in hand one day.

Maybe I'm reading to much into that post, but me thinks Delta has some plans for MSP?
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lhcvg
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting airbuske (Reply 8):
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 5):
Its TechOps biggest money maker

Only in the eye of the public.

Are we just confusing between profitability and revenue? I ask because it seems reasonable that engines may well be higher marginal profit per unit, but that the airframe side certainly wins in revenue.
 
B757Forever
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting HermansCVR580 (Reply 26):
Maybe I'm reading to much into that post, but me thinks Delta has some plans for MSP?

From what I have heard, the MSP shop has been set up to work the V2500 build ups (QEC) and the PW2000 light repair engines. That way these lighter scope repairs do not occupy an engine overhaul bay in ATL and do not occupy valuable test-cell time in ATL. DL cannot easily expand the test cell capabilities in ATL due to EPA / air quality permitting issues. Having and retaining a permitted operating test cell in MSP is crucial to the operation.
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burnsie28
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 23):
I have been hearing rumours that Delta is thinking about tearing down the old Northwest Hangers 6 and 7.

I think that was part of the original 2020 plan laid out by NW and MAC.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 23):
The hangers and "GO" that were torn down was done to supposedly expand what was called the Gold Concourse. I do not know what they call it now. I personally think there was more to the reason given as to why these buildings were torn down.

It was, if you look at the plans that NW and MAC came up with for the 2020 plan, the terminal is to be expanded, however, that depends on what DL does now as far as MSP flying.
 
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 5):
Note the CF34 is the RJ engine. Its nothing but 3rd party work. IIRC its the only CF34 shop in the US.

There must be 1500+ CRJ and E-jets in the US alone, so 3000 CF34 engines must mean a lot of work and $$$ for Delta TechOps...?
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Dalmd88
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:18 am

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 27):
Are we just confusing between profitability and revenue? I ask because it seems reasonable that engines may well be higher marginal profit per unit, but that the airframe side certainly wins in revenue.

The engine side brings in way more money than the airframe work. It has for years. We insource a lot of motors and the profit margin on the airframe side is real slim. Right now for airfame work I only see Navy C-40, Atlas, Lan mods and Janet 737. We got stung real hard on the World/North American contracts with their Chpt 11.
 
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 30):
There must be 1500+ CRJ and E-jets in the US alone, so 3000 CF34 engines must mean a lot of work and $$$ for Delta TechOps...?

IIRC at least one important regional carrier in the USA and several in Latin America have a CF34 maintenance contract with MTU, so not everything stays in North America.
MTU is a factory authorized maintenance provider after all:

http://www.geaviation.com/press/services/services_20020205.html


Edit: here we go:

http://mtu.de/en/investorrelations/i...0726_MTU_Gro__auftrag_Berlin_e.pdf
http://mtu.de/en/take-off/report/arc...old/2_2006/206_contract/index.html
http://mtu.de/en/take-off/report/arc...ct/animation_shopvisits/index.html

[Edited 2012-08-25 16:38:18]
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deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:55 am

Quoting HermansCVR580 (Reply 26):

You are. Test cells are hard to come by. Delta isn't going to dump a test cell.

In theory MSP could have 1 or 2 engine overhaul lines. So if the MRO side keeps growing they may have to do something with MSP. I didn't mean delta is going to do a ton of growing in MSP.

but 757forever brings up a great point. Both things done in MSP would take up test cell and floor space wherever they are.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 30):

GE offers Overhaul in the Us and their is at least 1 MRO in Canada. (and no idea about Mexico)

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 31):
The engine side brings in way more money than the airframe work. It has for years. We insource a lot of motors and the profit margin on the airframe side is real slim. Right now for airfame work I only see Navy C-40, Atlas, Lan mods and Janet 737. We got stung real hard on the World/North American contracts with their Chpt 11.

and every now and then something from HA.

IMO world will end up back at TechOps if they can get past BK. I don't think PEMCO is going to be around much longer.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 28):
DL cannot easily expand the test cell capabilities in ATL due to EPA / air quality permitting issues.

I have heard this a few times now. Is it a cost issue? Also could Delta say upgrade one of the smaller test cells?(isn't one cell pretty much just for JT8s?)
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n901wa
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:45 pm

Howzit Deltal1011man. Hope your doing well too. Yea lots of RR work out west. Hawaiians A330   Had to do road trip Boros for them. Did you hear 2 Western/Delta Mechs passed away? Yea, I would love to start a 524 one more time  
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:29 am

Quoting n901wa (Reply 34):
Hope your doing well too.

I'm alive and well. Better now that football is about to start back.

Quoting n901wa (Reply 34):
Yea lots of RR work out west

sweet. Brand new Trent 700s.....lucky.
Are yall doing any long checks on the HA 330s or are they all being done in MSP?

Quoting n901wa (Reply 34):
Did you hear 2 Western/Delta Mechs passed away

No didn't hear that. Sad thing.  

[Edited 2012-08-26 23:36:33]
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n901wa
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:50 pm

Howzit Deltal1011man. MSP is doing the larger Checks.
The Trent 700 are nice to Boro and inspect, still new   But we have had to change 3 engs already on the HAL A330s. I didn't have my A330 PreFlight then, so I didn't buy them off.
Yea, very Sad. Tex Lofton passed away a few months ago, and Ken Okamoto and Chris Teixeira pass away when I was in Derby. Hope the Heat has broken, and bring on some Football  
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:38 am

Quoting n901wa (Reply 36):
MSP is doing the larger Checks.

Thought so. Ah well, maybe one delta Delta will go back to doing some big work in LA. I'd love nothing more than for them to take over the low-bay and put up the classic DELTA AIR LINES signs on it.

Quoting n901wa (Reply 36):
The Trent 700 are nice to Boro and inspect, still new

I bet.

Quoting n901wa (Reply 36):
But we have had to change 3 engs already on the HAL A330s

Holly crap.      

Quoting n901wa (Reply 36):
Tex Lofton passed away a few months ago, and Ken Okamoto and Chris Teixeira pass away when I was in Derby.

shame. Prayers for their families.

Quoting n901wa (Reply 36):
Hope the Heat has broken

Its not in the 60s like it is in socal but we have been in the 80s lately. Hopefully Issac will give us some rain over the next few days and help cool it down even more. Ready for 70 degrees.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
HermansCVR580
Posts: 372
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RE: Delta Indicates IT Will Insource Engine Overhauls

Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:08 pm

How much room does MSP have? I know a bunch of Northwest hangars are gone, I thought that all that was left was the old Republic hangars and the addition that NWA did for the wide bodies on the back side of building C, but had heard that the hangars and offices there were or may be coming down?
The right decision at the wrong time, is still a wrong decision. "Hal Carr"

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