nicoj
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It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:16 pm

Hi everyone,

I wrote a message here in the forum a while back, in regards to how much it would cost to acquire a used B747. Quite a lot of you replied my thread; so thank you very much for that!

I wasn't that keen on disclosing too many details about the project, but now the project has got a go-ahead, so I've now got to find a B747.


Here's the mission:

- Find an old Boeing 747 passenger jet (preferably a -100 / -200 series; anything cheap really)

- This B747 is to be acquired by a European music festival (the people I work for), who want the jumbo to be a fixture on the festival grounds.

- The majority of the interior of the Jumbo will be converted into bar and concert space + much more.

- The Jumbo will have to have all engines in place for its final flight to the festival in Europe. (I'm thinking that the engines could be sold off after the last flight, as they have most value).



Who knows of an old and used B747 passenger jet somewhere in the world, which is for sale?



Thanks in advance.

Kind regards,
Nicholas
 
Joost
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:53 pm

Wow, you sound very brave by even thinking about such a project.

The first thing that I thought of when reading this: you are apparently looking for an *airworthy* 747, but you will be using it only as a structure.

The value of an airworthy frame is considerably higher than just the metal scrap value. Not only engines can still be worth good money, but all kinds of components can still have considerable value. Think of all kinds of actuators, valves, pumps, compressors, avionics, etc, etc. And components that are pulled 'fresh' from an airworthy frame are worth even more.

Also, I don't know which country it is, but putting structure on a festival ground, that happened to be an airplane, can (legal-wise) be very different from putting an actual aircraft (as it is airworthy) on the ground. Also, scrapping the airframe from usable parts is very difficult without the right knowledge.

Without having numbers (as I never undertook such a project), I can well imagine that the costs of a already-dismantled airframe and the ground transport costs, can be much lower than buying an airworthy frame

I would try something completely different: approach an Aircraft Scrapping company. For example, there is one at Keble, which have been scrapping several Air France and Corsair 747s. They will know where to find written-off airframes, know how to part them out, have knowledge about ground transportation, etc. I think this is more viable than buying an airworthy frame.
 
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kanban
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:52 pm

Another idea is check with local major airlines that may be surplussing one, for naming rights (keeping the name and colors) they might make a deal...
 
PGNCS
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:19 pm

Where are you planning on flying into, and how are you planning on moving it to the festival grounds, or is there a suitable runway at the festival grounds? What is your budget?

There are a lot of vagaries that make addressing this as posted quite difficult. This will required much logistical and technical knowledge and planning; do you have anyone on staff or under contract with the requisite knowledge?

  
 
2H4
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:40 pm

Intentionally Left Blank
 
Horstroad
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:43 pm

LH is currently phasing out some of their 747-400...
 
canoecarrier
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting nicoj (Thread starter):
- This B747 is to be acquired by a European music festival (the people I work for), who want the jumbo to be a fixture on the festival grounds.

Is your client/employer really willing to spend $2 million for an airworthy 747? It wasn't that long ago we had a thread about one that was going to be salvaged here in the US that sold for something like $150K US dollars.

Quoting joost (Reply 1):
I would try something completely different: approach an Aircraft Scrapping company. For example, there is one at Keble, which have been scrapping several Air France and Corsair 747s. They will know where to find written-off airframes, know how to part them out, have knowledge about ground transportation, etc. I think this is more viable than buying an airworthy frame.

I think this is good advice.
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B777LRF
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:50 am

So you come to an internet bulletin board full of aviation nerds to launch a project involving acquiring, and flying, a 747?

May I suggest, out of courtesy, that you should perhaps consider conducting your research with the help of professionals? I know it costs money, but at least that way you may have a chance of success. With your initial action in mind, however, I fear your endeavors may ultimately lead to an unfortunate end.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
bond007
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:18 pm

There is no way I would let my 'European music festival' waste such ridiculous amounts of money on this idea, as much as you might love the concept. There is no way you could fly an airworthy 747, and then scrap it, and convert it to your needs, for less than many millions of dollars.... and end up with a hull worth very little, even if you did sell the engines etc. (a business you are not in, I presume).

The only cost-effective way of doing this, is to buy the scrapped 747 hull somewhere, and get it shipped .... still a poor economic idea in IMO ... the money could be much better spent elsewhere for the festival.


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NWADC9
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:58 pm

If you buy an airworthy 747 to fly it in, don't forget the cost of crew, fuel, insurance, etc. And once you fly it in (to a large airport, not a grass strip), then what?
Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:17 pm

Considering the planned use of the aircraft.no point spending on purchasing an airworthy unit & flying it to the venue,it would be cheaper still to procure a scrapped unit & transport it by road to the venue & erect the same there.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:48 pm

The moment the aircraft bgets stricken off the registration roll and leaves the controlled maintenance programme all parts will cease to be aircraft spare parts and will jusdt become scrap metal.
Nobody will certify for aircraft parts if the aircraft has left the maintenance programme.
Also don´t forget that a lot of the aircraft will become hazardous waste, which is very expensive to get rid off legally.

Jan
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DL_Mech
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:00 pm

How about a music festival at Kemble? Problem solved!
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
bueb0g
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:38 pm

Quoting nicoj (Thread starter):
anything cheap really

and

Quoting nicoj (Thread starter):
for its final flight to the festival in Europe

do not go together. Unless you are willing to spend $6 million + (to buy the plane, get it ready to fly including any mx work, insure it, fuel it, find a crew, fly it, transport it to the festival), you will, as everyone else has said, have to find a scrap frame and use that. This was the consensus on the last thread you posted too.

As has already been stated here aswell, once you've taken it, you won't be able to sell the components as spare parts. So you can forget flying it to Europe and selling the bits off that you don't need.

We're not just doing this for the lulz - there is nothing cheap about flying an airliner, even (and sometimes especially!) an old one.
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shufflemoomin
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:36 pm

What possible music festival anywhere in the world is going to spend millions upon millions, not to mention the ridiculous level of red tape to get this happen? I wasn't even aware that any music festival owned the grounds that it's held on instead of renting. Seriously, what festival is going to go through all this just to have an old airliner around that almost no one outside of this community would care about?
 
Viscount724
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 9):
If you buy an airworthy 747 to fly it in, don't forget the cost of crew, fuel, insurance, etc. And once you fly it in (to a large airport, not a grass strip), then what?

A retired Interflug IL-62 was flown into a grass field (not even a runway) in 1989 for display at an off-airport location somewhere in what was then East Germany. Two related videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=sCZRwv_568Y&feature=endscreen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EP2fgosJ0A
 
bluejuice
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:19 pm

Scrapping and conversion is not an overnight affair either. To recoup any costs, the usable parts will need to be properly dismantled and then recertified for resale. The frame will need to be drained of fuel and other fluids which need to be disposed of properly. Gutting the rest will yield tons and tons of assorted materials that need to be hauled away. This is all done at boneyards with lots of heavy equipment such as cranes. I can't imagine this being done away from a maintenance facility.

Not sure how close to festival grounds are to an airport that can support a 747 ferry flight but I am fairly certain you can't just taxi a 747 to it's final destination.

[Edited 2012-09-02 13:26:20]
 
flyingturtle
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 12):
How about a music festival at Kemble? Problem solved!

...and the Burning Man festival should be held at Davis-Monthan AFB... 
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2H4
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:23 pm

The cheapest way to get an airliner might be to form a not-for-profit organization and convince an operator to donate an old one to you for the tax write-off. It's not uncommon for airlines to donate old airframes to universities, museums, etc in this manner.
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Flighty
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:45 am

I dunno, the idea of a 747, music, and ridiculous drug taking sounds kind of neat.      
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:32 am

I'm surprised you would come here looking for the answer. If you don't know where to go, I've got a bridge for sale, "cheap too just $50 dollars down, $50 dollars a week for 50 years" Cheech & Chong for Flighty
 
wingscrubber
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:36 am

Sounds like a terrible business proposition to me, but here's a Jumbo for sale;

http://www.controller.com/listingsde...0/1986-BOEING-747-200/1241661.htm?

Some folks who have tried this sort of thing before have not been sucessful;
http://m.luxurylaunches.com/travel/b...DUTF-8%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari

Others, look a little more promising;
http://www.toxel.com/inspiration/201...airplane-hotel-in-the-netherlands/

http://www.hotelopia.com/h/hotel-jum...y-airplane-hotel_stockholm_145658/

http://inhabitat.com/costa-rican-hotel-suite-takes-flight/

Ultimately though, airplanes are more than expensive enough when they're just being airplanes, making them into something else is more expensive still.

[Edited 2012-09-04 22:39:14]

[Edited 2012-09-04 22:45:21]
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DocLightning
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:00 pm

If it's for a festival, perhaps it might be easier to charter a 747 freighter (empty main deck) for a few days?
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bikerthai
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:48 pm

Dang,

We have many nay sayer here.

If they can convert a 727 or a 747 to a hotel (room), you can get a 747 for your music festival.

But as some have said. Do not get a flight worthy one. Consider not getting the wings. But if you want the wings, they can be removed and re-assembled. Remember, this would not be a flight worthy frame.

Shipping by barge is perfectly acceptable.

If they are going to chop down hundreds of trees to get the shuttle to a Los Angeles Museum, you can get you 747 with wings off via truck to a music festival.

Remember also that their are splice joints on the airframe that will allow you to break the 747 in smaller sections and re-assemble them later. Remember that when re-assembling, you don't have to make it flight worthy.

Best place to start talking is at your local flight museum. They will have many airplane restorers who can help you with the details.

by
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shufflemoomin
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 23):
We have many nay sayer here.

If they can convert a 727 or a 747 to a hotel (room), you can get a 747 for your music festival.

A hotel is a business and that aircraft is the main selling point and also the structure to house the business. You'll also find most are close to airports. You cannot even being to compare that to a music festival doing this as a side project just to add a little bit of interest. I don't believe for a second this proposition is real. I really don't. I don't see how a music festival would have this sort of financing available and as I said above, I doubt most, if any music festivals own their own ground. What would they do with it the rest of the year? How can anyone imagine a festival going to this level of expense and trouble for something so trivial?
 
bond007
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 23):
If they can convert a 727 or a 747 to a hotel (room), you can get a 747 for your music festival.

But as some have said. Do not get a flight worthy one. Consider not getting the wings. But if you want the wings, they can be removed and re-assembled. Remember, this would not be a flight worthy frame.

Shipping by barge is perfectly acceptable.

....and how many hundreds of thousands (or millions) of dollars do you think this might cost??

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 23):
If they are going to chop down hundreds of trees to get the shuttle to a Los Angeles Museum, you can get you 747 with wings off via truck to a music festival.

Nice comparison!

Yes, it cost 14.2 million dollars ...at least  


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bikerthai
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:57 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 24):
You'll also find most are close to airports.

The 727 I saw was on top of a cliff. They had to lift it up with a helicopter. Don't know if you can do that with a 747 section.

As I recall, they barged the Spruce Goose from LA to Portland.

The organizer can probably contact that museum to get an estimate on shipping and transportation cost.

If it's an aeronautical theme, you'll probably spend less money building an "airplane like" structure from scratch.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 25):
....and how many hundreds of thousands (or millions) of dollars do you think this might cost??

Maybe the festival have a "rock-star" benefactor with deep pockets. I heard about one that is starting an aviation maintenance business.  

bt
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readytotaxi
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:55 pm

just a thought, if it is for a one off festival, could not a film studio set department make up a mock up cheaper for you.  
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bikerthai
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:53 pm

Wait a minute?

Does it have to be a B747?


Near Seattle, we have an old ferry boat that needs a home.

The boat is called the Kalakala. It would have huge concert space and rooms for food boots as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Kalakala

Price would be very cheap. Renovation would be expensive . . .

You can tow it to England. Although, the final destination may have to be near a large body of water.

bt

[Edited 2012-09-06 11:59:00]
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cargolex
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 28):
Price would be very cheap

No it wouldn't, as it will never be sold to become fodder for a music venue in Europe. Considering how much money was spent to bring that ferry back from Alaska, where it had become a floating fish cannery, I doubt anybody could give the people responsible for it enough money for them to consign it to yet another ignominious fate, and one from which it would then be unrestorable.

It's also too fragile to move even in the open waters of Puget Sound now, let alone a long ocean voyage which would have to take it through the Panama Canal and then over the Atlantic.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 24):

A hotel is a business and that aircraft is the main selling point and also the structure to house the business

That structure was also already in place where it was. In that case, it was more taking an existing structure in-situ and repurposing it.

Moving an airworthy airplane to a place far from an airfield, that's just (really pricey) madness.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 23):
Remember also that their are splice joints on the airframe that will allow you to break the 747 in smaller sections and re-assemble them later. Remember that when re-assembling, you don't have to make it flight worthy.

That would be the only way this would ever, ever, ever happen.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting cargolex (Reply 29):
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 28):
Price would be very cheap

No it wouldn't, as it will never be sold to become fodder for a music venue in Europe.

The Kalakala can be obtained cheap. Otherwise it will most likely end up in the crap yard.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/trans...ation/article/Kalakala-3540289.php

The cost would be in the transport to the final destination. Never said THAT part will be cheap. If you can't float it onto a barge then you may need a dedicated ship transport which would be more expensive.

bt
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Flighty
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:52 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 28):
he boat is called the Kalakala. It would have huge concert space and rooms for food boots as well.

Thanks for that interesting read!
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:38 am

Anything is possible with enough money but I cant believe a music festival can afford this
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:05 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 32):
Anything is possible with enough money but I cant believe a music festival can afford this

Same here...but then it depends on who is sponsoring the event.....
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
bond007
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 30):
The Kalakala can be obtained cheap. Otherwise it will most likely end up in the crap yard.

...then we must be reading a different link!

The costs even before transporting it, are millions of dollars! The fact they are 'selling' it for $1 is irrelevant. You would be buying a sunken rust bucket.

"The Army Corps has about $1 million available from the National Emergency Sunken Vessel fund, but as corps spokesman William Dowell said, "A million dollars isn't going to take care of this thing."

...and they are only selling it to someone who will restore it:

"But the vessel's website says the restoration plan would need about $50 million."


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PHX787
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
If it's for a festival, perhaps it might be easier to charter a 747 freighter (empty main deck) for a few days?

Getting it to-from the festival would be problematic.
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neutrino
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:53 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 35):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
If it's for a festival, perhaps it might be easier to charter a 747 freighter (empty main deck) for a few days?
Getting it to-from the festival would be problematic.

Not necessarily.
nicoj has not mentioned the festival location yet.
It could be at or adjacent to an airport/airfield able to handle the jumbo.
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
comorin
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:57 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
If it's for a festival, perhaps it might be easier to charter a 747 freighter (empty main deck) for a few days?

I believe you posted a picture of what that would look like in a Non-Av thread a week ago?
 
flyingturtle
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 37):

     
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
PHX787
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:38 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 37):
I believe you posted a picture of what that would look like in a Non-Av thread a week ago?

Which thread? I missed this!

Quoting neutrino (Reply 36):
It could be at or adjacent to an airport/airfield able to handle the jumbo.

Ah I completely forgot that
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flyingturtle
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:14 am

Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 26):
Maybe the festival have a "rock-star" benefactor with deep pockets. I heard about one that is starting an aviation maintenance business.  

DING DING DING Paging Bruce Dickinson...!!! LOL.

I saw a guy who bought a 727 and used as home it cost like 98K to do it and he had the whole ething disassembled and trucked.

I guess you need to contact a scrapper and make them disassemble the 747 move it and reassemble. My guesstimate would be 500 000 to 600 000 USD for the whole enchilada. NON airworthy 747...

HEck I don't even drink but I would if it was inside a bar in a 747....
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shufflemoomin
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:48 pm

Once again, I repeat my question: what festival out there OWNS the ground the festival is held on? In what way would it be a good investment? The land would sit there for around 51 weeks a year doing nothing. I still don't believe for two minutes this a real scenario that is being seriously considered. I look forward to being proven wrong.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:26 pm

You all seem much more interested in this topic than the OP. He hasn't posted here since he started the thread.
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HAWK21M
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:27 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 43):

You all seem much more interested in this topic than the OP. He hasn't posted here since he started the thread.

Guess the op is busy towing the B747 to its destination..... 

Wonder whats the update on this.
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sudden
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RE: It's Official: I'm Looking For A Used B747

Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:29 am

Only me finding it a bit strange that he starts this thread and don't check back saying anything for almost a month!?
I say bin this thread as it's nothing but empty talk from a boy having a wet dream.
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