G500
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:45 pm

Business-jets Don't Operate On Polar Routes, Why?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:46 am

I've never heard of long-range business jet operators doing polar crossings. Why? is it an ETOPS thing, or strict safety restrictions/regulations, or something else like being restricted to a certain latitude?

the Airbus Corporate Jet (ACJ A319), Global Express XRS and G-V/550 have a range of about 6700-6800NM, about 14 hours of air time, so range shouldn't be a problem.

cheers
 
BMI727
Posts: 11099
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Business-jets Don't Operate On Polar Routes, Why?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:52 am

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
I've never heard of long-range business jet operators doing polar crossings.

I've never heard of them not doing polar crossings either. It could just be traffic patterns.

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
is it an ETOPS thing, or strict safety restrictions/regulations, or something else like being restricted to a certain latitude?

I don't thin business jets are subject to ETOPS and they generally operate under looser regulations than airlines. That isn't to say that some operators don't restrict themselves, but I don't think it's a regulatory thing.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
FI642
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:48 am

RE: Business-jets Don't Operate On Polar Routes, Why?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:57 am

Polar routes require specific sequent to be carried on board for the crew, and special training and authorization (at least for commercial carriers)- it's not worth the effort and hassle to do so,
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
User avatar
nighthawk
Posts: 4781
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 2:33 am

RE: Business-jets Don't Operate On Polar Routes, Why?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:28 am

Quoting FI642 (Reply 2):
Polar routes require specific sequent to be carried on board for the crew, and special training and authorization (at least for commercial carriers)- it's not worth the effort and hassle to do so,

Also, they need to be fitted with a self contained navigational system. Once you enter the Arctic circle, compass readings become unreliable, as does GPS. As such you need to have a navigational system that is capable of operating without either of these two readings. There are only a few aircraft that are capable of doing polar routes - I believe the 737, 757 and 767 cannot, while the 777 and 747 can. I am not sure about Airbus aircraft.

The following Boeing article explains some of the requirements: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_16/polar_story.html
 
dw747400
Posts: 1091
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2001 8:24 am

RE: Business-jets Don't Operate On Polar Routes, Why?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:29 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):

I don't thin business jets are subject to ETOPS and they generally operate under looser regulations than airlines.

In the US privately owned and operated business jets are not required to meet ETOPS. Chartered business jets (part 135) are, though the ETOPS rules are somewhat different than those that apply to airlines (part 121).
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Business-jets Don't Operate On Polar Routes, Why?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
is it an ETOPS thing, or strict safety restrictions/regulations, or something else like being restricted to a certain latitude?

You need some unique equipment to operate polar. Most biz jets don't meet the safety requirements. They are also far more exposed to cold fuel issues because of the higher surface/volume ratio of the fuel tanks.

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 3):
Once you enter the Arctic circle, compass readings become unreliable, as does GPS.

GPS works fine. Compass and land-based radio does not, so you need something to backup the GPS (i.e. inertial).

Tom.
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Business-jets Don't Operate On Polar Routes, Why?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 3):
There are only a few aircraft that are capable of doing polar routes - I believe the 737, 757 and 767 cannot

737s are commercially operated to destinations in the Canadian arctic.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Business-jets Don't Operate On Polar Routes, Why?

Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):
Most biz jets don't meet the safety requirements. They are also far more exposed to cold fuel issues because of the higher surface/volume ratio of the fuel tanks.

Most bizjets have Prist added to their fuel, which prevents BA 38 type cold soak problems...   It is done to business aircraft mostly because they are used more infrequently than commercial aircraft, and prevents problems with fuel decay/bacteria in the fuel tanks. Some types (early Learjets?) require Prist on every fueling because their fuel systems are notoriously prone to ice crystal formation in their fuel systems...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
jetstar
Posts: 1369
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Business-jets Don't Operate On Polar Routes, Why?

Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:42 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 7):
Most bizjets have Prist added to their fuel, which prevents BA 38 type cold soak problems... It is done to business aircraft mostly because they are used more infrequently than commercial aircraft, and prevents problems with fuel decay/bacteria in the fuel tanks. Some types (early Learjets?) require Prist on every fueling because their fuel systems are notoriously prone to ice crystal formation in their fuel systems...


The reason the GE CJ=610 powered LearJets always needed Prist added to their fuel is because they did not have any engine fuel heaters installed, there are some other small corporate jets that also require Prist because they also lack fuel heaters.

On the LockHeed JetStar we had fuel heaters, if the fuel filter started to clog because of water crystals forming in the fuel filter, we would get an warning light in the cockpit and we would then turn the fuel heater switch, this would divert some hot engine oil through the fuel heater warming the fuel and melting the water crystals. If I remember way back it only took about a one half pound of pressure differential to activate the fuel filter warning light.

In all the time I was on the JetStar, I never once saw the warning light come on, but it was part of the maintenance check to activate the fuel heaters with the engines running to check to see if they were operating properly, a lot of times I did this when we were taxiing.

JetStar
 
Chese
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:17 pm

RE: Business-jets Don't Operate On Polar Routes, Why?

Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:28 pm

There isn't really any reason modern big bizjets capable of the flight couldn't do it equipment wise, but really there aren't many flights that really require it. Also as Jetstar said, most bizjets don't use Prist generally speaking.
Note to airliners.net admins, I will not like you on Facebook.
 
garynor
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:33 am

RE: Business-jets Don't Operate On Polar Routes, Why?

Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:14 am

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 6):
737s are commercially operated to destinations in the Canadian arctic.

That isn't actually very far north... if you mean mainland at least. In Norway there are regularly scheduled flights to Longyearbyen, Spitsbergen, 78 + degrees north, quite a bit farther up than mainland Canada. Don't know about the requirements for flying there though.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18974
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Business-jets Don't Operate On Polar Routes, Why?

Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:16 am

Quoting garynor (Reply 10):
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 6):
737s are commercially operated to destinations in the Canadian arctic.

That isn't actually very far north... if you mean mainland at least. In Norway there are regularly scheduled flights to Longyearbyen, Spitsbergen, 78 + degrees north, quite a bit farther up than mainland Canada. Don't know about the requirements for flying there though.

Nobody referred to "mainland" Canada. Why make that distinction, especially when you refer to Longyearbyen which is on an island? Much of the Canadian Arctic is islands, some bigger than many European countries. 737s and 727s have regularly operated to points like Resolute Bay (YRB) at 74.5 degrees N for over 40 years. 737 charters also operate to points further north like Alert (YLT), Canada's and the world's most northerly permanently populated place at over 82 deg. N.

An Air Inuit gravel-kit equipped 737-200 combi at Resolute Bay.

http://www.nunatsiaqonline.ca/pub/photos/Air_Inuit_737.jpg

And a Pacific Western 727-100 combi at the same location in the mid 1970s.

http://www.pwareunion.com/images/aircraft/B727-YRB.jpg
 
boeingfixer
Posts: 573
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:02 am

RE: Business-jets Don't Operate On Polar Routes, Why?

Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:03 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 7):
Most bizjets have Prist added to their fuel, which prevents BA 38 type cold soak problems...

Actually the only thing Prist does is depress the freezing point of the suspended water particles and does nothing to the freeze point of the fuel. The main reason to be aware of your fuel temperature on polar routes is due to the freezing point of the fuel. Jet A1 freezes at -47C and A at -40C. If your TAT drops below the freeze point of the fuel for too long you'd better try and find a different altitude with warmer air.

Cheers,

John
Cheers, John YYC
 
garynor
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:33 am

RE: Business-jets Don't Operate On Polar Routes, Why?

Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:56 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
Nobody referred to "mainland" Canada. Why make that distinction, especially when you refer to Longyearbyen which is on an island?

Just because I didn't know how many routes go up to the Canadian islands, thanks for pointing out that there are indeed several.

Would be interested to know if any of the polar route requirements also apply to some of these routes.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: trijetsonly and 10 guests