smartt1982
Topic Author
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:17 pm

Engine Failure On Take Off And ATC

Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:57 pm

It is my understanding (and my company SOPS) that if we have an engine failure on Take off the normal SID takes second place to the handling of the engine failure (except of course if we have an Emergency turn), we have been told to go straight ahead whilst climbing to the MSA if at all possible. Do ATC know we are going to do this? I am just thinking of situations where the alignment of the departing runway will take you straight into the approach/departure path of other aircraft from other airports i.e. London TMA. Of course an early pan/mayday call might help this but is it really the best option to go straight ahead no matter what in the case of an engine failure?
 
tdscanuck
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Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Engine Failure On Take Off And ATC

Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
Do ATC know we are going to do this?

Generally not. If there is an engine-out SID they probably expect you'll follow that but they know that you may not. The pilot, not ATC, has ultimate authority on safe operation of the aircraft. ATC expects you to do what you have to do and tell them what you're doing if/when you get a chance.

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
Of course an early pan/mayday call might help this but is it really the best option to go straight ahead no matter what in the case of an engine failure?

Aviate, navigate, communicate. Do what you need to do to take care of your airplane; ATC retains responsibility for maintaining seperation and, even if you don't talk to them, they will vector other aircraft around you if you start to head into a conflict and aren't talking to them.

Tom.
 
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litz
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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

RE: Engine Failure On Take Off And ATC

Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:58 pm

Not to mention, that if you have an engine issue that's grabbing that much of your attention, someone in the tower (or elsewhere) probably saw the somewhat spectacular result from outside, that you're frantically troubleshooting on the inside ...
 
Mir
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Engine Failure On Take Off And ATC

Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
Of course an early pan/mayday call might help this but is it really the best option to go straight ahead no matter what in the case of an engine failure?

I don't believe so. If there's a SID, I'll be flying it (on AP) while troubleshooting the problem. An engine failure (or even an engine fire) isn't so serious that I can't take a couple of seconds to engage nav mode, select FLC V2, and then start working on whatever checklist needs to be run. If there's a special engine-out departure, I'll fly that.

If it's something where controllability of the aircraft is an issue (i.e. reverser deployment), then I'll go straight ahead until I can get things sorted out. But SIDs and DPs tend to be established for a reason, which is likely unknown to me; it could be terrain, it could be lots of traffic somewhere, but more likely than not it's going to be for something I don't want to be heading into. So I'll try and follow the SID to the extent practical.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Pihero
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RE: Engine Failure On Take Off And ATC

Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
So I'll try and follow the SID to the extent practical.

Sometimes it's a good recipe for an encounter with Terra Firma and things attached to her.
There are many places where terrain / climb performance are big factors on airplane one-engine-out trajectories . Those paths are inserted into our FMS data bases as EOSIDs (engine out SIDs).
ATC isn't supposed to know of all of them, so when one has time, it would be good to inform the tower people on your trajectory.
Contrail designer
 
Mir
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Engine Failure On Take Off And ATC

Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:15 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 4):
Sometimes it's a good recipe for an encounter with Terra Firma and things attached to her.

Obviously, I'll only follow a SID if I can meet its climb requirements. If I can't do that, then I'll have an engine-out climb ready in case it's necessary, and I'll advise ATC of what I'm doing as soon as practical (though normally they parallel the regular SIDs, just with restrictions on speed and bank angle to ensure that one stays on course).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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zeke
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RE: Engine Failure On Take Off And ATC

Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:19 am

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
engine failure on Take off the normal SID takes second place to the handling of the engine failure

Correct, fly the aircraft. A-N-C.

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
we have been told to go straight ahead whilst climbing to the MSA if at all possible

Do what your performance charts says to do, they are certified documents.

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
Do ATC know we are going to do this?

No

Quoting smartt1982 (Thread starter):
Of course an early pan/mayday call might help this but is it really the best option to go straight ahead no matter what in the case of an engine failure?

A quick 10s Pan/Maday with STANDBY call you back is enough. Leave the ATC to them, and you should fly the aircraft. They will sort the traffic out, and then will also keep an eye on you. Been a number of cases where aircraft have got into trouble, people go so focused on trying to fix the problem they forgot to fly the aircraft. Monitoring of their path by ATC saved the day.

When you have a chance, in plain language tell ATC what happened, what you need (eg somewhere to dump fuel for 20 minutes), and your intentions, (come back/divert). They can then plan for this, and the subsequent handling is all taken care of.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 1):
ATC expects you to do what you have to do and tell them what you're doing if/when you get a chance.

Correct

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 1):
ATC retains responsibility for maintaining seperation and, even if you don't talk to them, they will vector other aircraft around you if you start to head into a conflict and aren't talking to them.

Correct

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
though normally they parallel the regular SIDs, just with restrictions on speed and bank angle to ensure that one stays on course

Most of our close in EO stuff looks nothing like normal SIDs. Normal SIDs are designed with traffic, ATC, and airways in mind. EO sids are designed with terrain in mind. A lot of places we go if we cannot reach a certain altitude by X DME on the normal SID, we turn back overhead the departure airport or a nearby aid.
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