Boston
Topic Author
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New LAX Departure Phraseology

Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:17 am

I was listening to LAX ATC today for the first time in a few weeks. When did they implement the "RNAV DLREY or HIIPR) part into the departure clearance?

Example: "DLH451, RNAV DLREY, runway 24L cleared for takeoff."

This was the first time I've heard this phraseology used at LAX, so I was hoping someone could shed some light on this.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: New LAX Departure Phraseology

Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:54 am

Yes, there's been a change in FAA ATC phraseology. WIthout looking it up, if the clearance is on a RNAV based departure, the clearance would be "RNAV" and the name of the first waypoint.

It's a simple change and a good one, I think.
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N243NW
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RE: New LAX Departure Phraseology

Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:11 am

You can hear it all the time at DFW when they're using RNAV departures. "American seven heavy, wind one eight zero at niner, RNAV to BPARK, cleared for takeoff runway one eight left."
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: New LAX Departure Phraseology

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:35 am

The new phraseology came out via a NOTICE that was effective September 17, 2012.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 1):
if the clearance is on a RNAV based departure, the clearance would be "RNAV" and the name of the first waypoint.


Except when you're getting a vectors to the first waypoint. Not all of the airports use RNAV off the ground such as what the OP referenced, you have to look at the departure route description to see if it's vectors to a fix.

[Edited 2012-10-01 04:51:14]
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: New LAX Departure Phraseology

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:54 pm

Hey IAHFLYR, we just got a bunch of new RNAV SIDS here in MEM so we're seeing the RNAV to the 1st wpt clearance.
 
Boston
Topic Author
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RE: New LAX Departure Phraseology

Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:18 pm

Well that explains everything and makes sense!
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: New LAX Departure Phraseology

Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 4):
Hey IAHFLYR, we just got a bunch of new RNAV SIDS here in MEM so we're seeing the RNAV to the 1st wpt clearance.


Yeah, some of the routes I see are vector to the first waypoint such as what the Houston area RNAV SIDS use, while other routes are direct to the fix.

Good luck and hopefully you guys won't have any cross overs!  
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apodino
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RE: New LAX Departure Phraseology

Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:33 pm

This is probably common place in BOS, LAS, CLT and ATL as well which are airports that rely heavily on RNAV departures off the runway. There are some airports that use RNAV departures which are radar vectors to the first fix (IAH and MSP would be examples) where this would not be used, and LGA even uses procedures that are RNAV off the deck to a certain fix...then radar vectors to another fix on course.

The airlines want these procedures to be standard at all the big airports. The problem is that this has caused problems at some airports because of climb rate issues (Mainly with A321s and RJ's), causing problems and the airports have backed off. PHL, MCO, LGA to an extent, and IND are airports I know of where RNAV procedures were developed and tried, and then cancelled shortly thereafter. It would be nice if all airports had these because as a pilot I would much rather be navigating on my own then relying on Radar Vectors, which are still used too often in my opinion and they would also ease controller burden quite a bit.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: New LAX Departure Phraseology

Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:04 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 7):
It would be nice if all airports had these because as a pilot I would much rather be navigating on my own then relying on Radar Vectors, which are still used too often in my opinion and they would also ease controller burden quite a bit.


While I don't disagree with you, until all boxes and aircraft fly the same lateral path of an RNAV procedure vectors are still needed. Also, quite often due to RNAV departure criteria used in procedure design increases flight track miles when a fairly large turn is required, when the vector is not subject to the same criteria and the turns are much tighter.

There are many cases where "Aircraft A" is flying a slightly different lateral path than "Aircraft B", even to the point of some boxes taking a turn at a fix coded fly-by and having the flight track appear as if it was coded fly-over. When using route containment for separation purposes those type of differences will shut the door.
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e38
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RE: New LAX Departure Phraseology

Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting Boston (thread starter), "RNAV DLREY or HIIPR)"

Just to clarify, I think what you may have heard was "RNAV 'to' DLREY" or "RNAV 'to' HIPPR."

As others have pointed out, this is an excellent method to confirm between the pilot and air traffic controller that the routing the pilot expects to fly is the same as the routing ATC expects you to fly!

There are some SIDs that have different first waypoints depending on which runway is being used for takeoff and/or what the transition routing is.

Is this being implemented at all airports? To the best of my knowledge, they do not use the "RNAV to . . ." phraseology at Salt Lake City International airport (SLC) even though they use RNAV departures.

e38
 
RyDawg82
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RE: New LAX Departure Phraseology

Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:44 pm

DFW has been using this phraseology since Summer of 2009. The intent was to ensure the aircraft flew to the correct waypoint. If you look at the BLECO departure from DFW as an example. There are four possible routes to be flown on the departure. 1 track from each "half" of the airport and then 1 per flow. It was possible at times that a pilot would fly to the wrong intersection. For example, possibly the pilot had the track loaded in for a 18L/R departure but was assigned 17R/C. The pilot would end up flying to BPARK intersection versus NAVYE.

When RNAV first launched at DFW in the early 2000's, a separate frequency was established that would verify verbally with all pilots their first fix. This was in the infancy of RNAV and at an airport like DFW where a wrong turn can spell trouble fast, a stopgap measure was needed. Eventually, that special route verification procedure was stopped. However, in 2009 it became necessary to ensure that pilots flew the intended track -- thus "RNAV to..." became a thing.

In September 2012, order N 7110.595 was issued that required either a heading to be issued OR if simultaneous parallel RNAV departures were in use, to state "RNAV to first fix".

Additional background and the notice is public information and can be found on the FAA's public website.

I hope this helps,
Ryan
You can take the pup out of Alaska, but you can't take the Alaska out of the pup.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: New LAX Departure Phraseology

Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:19 am

Quoting e38 (Reply 9):
Is this being implemented at all airports? To the best of my knowledge, they do not use the "RNAV to . . ." phraseology at Salt Lake City International airport (SLC) even though they use RNAV departures.


See Reply 3 & 6.

Quoting RyDawg82 (Reply 10):
Additional background and the notice is public information and can be found on the FAA's public website.

Nice post and with the link Ryan.
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