jumbojim747
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747 Full Length Double Decks

Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:42 pm

While reading up on the 747 first designs i noticed that Boeing had plans for a full length double decks.
Why did Boeing not go ahead with this instead opting for the hump. ?
On a wing and a prayer
 
nomadd22
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:30 pm

The design they were looking at was a narrower body double decker of about the same capacity as the 747. But when they and their customers, particularly Juan Trippe, saw a mockup of the wide body cabin, it was so impressive they decided to go that route.
The plane was originally though of as mainly a freighter. Putting to cockpit up high let them install a nose that opened for loading without the great complexity having the cockpit in the part that raised up. They went ahead and added a few seats behind the cockpit on the original and a lot more seats on later models.
Joe Sutter was the guy who headed the team and his book, 747, is a great read on the creation of the Jumbo.
Anon
 
jumbojim747
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:42 pm

Hi nomadd.
Interesting that it was meant to be a freighter originally.
Is the original test frame still around. ?
On a wing and a prayer
 
zanl188
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:08 pm

N7470, 747 #1, is at the Museum of Flight, Boeing Field, Seattle

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=47.519318,-122.29945&z=18&t=h&hl=en
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nomadd22
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 2):
Hi nomadd.
Interesting that it was meant to be a freighter originally.
Is the original test frame still around. ?

Not so much meant to be a freighter as they thought the freighter would be most of it's sales. As with the 737, people thought that the SSTs would be the future of passenger travel and subsonic liners wouldn't be around that much longer.
Anon
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:09 pm

Here are a couple of 747 concepts.

The "anteater"
http://rosboch.net/aviationmedia/Early747options_anteater.jpg

Mid-wing double decker
http://rosboch.net/aviationmedia/Early747options_doubledecker.jpg

And just for fun, the 747-300 three-engine shrink that was conceived after the design was finalized.
http://rosboch.net/aviationmedia/B747-300_Concept_with_three_engines.jpg
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
Viscount724
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
N7470, 747 #1, is at the Museum of Flight, Boeing Field, Seattle

As a sidenote re the photo, it's sad that those historically-important aircraft are sitting outdoors in SEA's far less-than-favorable climate for long-term aircraft preservation. They should ask a local resident like Bill Gates for a donation to build a hangar and name it for him. It would just be small change for him.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:10 pm

The Museum of Flight does have plans to build a hangar for the planes currently on display in the Air Park.
 
Tod
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:53 pm

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 2):
Is the original test frame still around. ?

I've got a pair of Weber pax seats out of it sitting at my Dad's house.
 
jetstar
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
N7470, 747 #1, is at the Museum of Flight, Boeing Field, Seattle

A little bit of useless trivia as to why the #1 747, N7470 did not have the registration number of N747.

N747 was registered to FMC Corporation and they had that number way before Boeing even designed the 747, it goes back to when FMC operated a B-23 Dragon as their first corporate airplane.

I knew the mechanics from FMC, they were based in the same hanger where I worked and they told me that Boeing offered FMC tons of money for the registration number, but FMC turned it down because they had that number for many years and were not about to give it up, so Boeing went with N7470 instead.

Checking the FAA database today shows the number is reserved, but not assigned to any airplane.

JetStar
 
jumbojim747
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:33 am

Guys thanks for all this information.
I just love to read stuff i didn't know about the quren of the skies
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cosmofly
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:26 pm

Boeing still has a chance to make the 747 a full length double decker.

During the course of designing the 747-8, Boeing freed up the space above door 3 to door 5 and tried to promote adding beds, lounge, galley and even gym up there. There were no takers except for VIP jets. Pax seats cannot be added due to take off and landing safety regulations. Can Boeing overcome this?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/07/travel/aeroloft-business-beds/index.html

Now that the design is already in place. How airlines can increase seat count by leveraging this new space will dictate if it will eventually happen. Moving galley and toilet up will allow some extra seat to be put on the main deck, but is it enough to justify?
 
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Stitch
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting cosmofly (Reply 11):
Can Boeing overcome this?

Sure.

If they want to design in windows, exit doors and slides along the top of the plane and then submit it for re-certification.

Which is definitely not going to happen due to the cost in time, money and weight.

[Edited 2012-10-09 11:42:10]
 
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ADent
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:35 am

One of the 747 concepts (747-700X?) actually went with a wider fuselage, rather than extending the upper deck.
 
jumbojim747
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:54 am

Is it in the pipeline for future designs for a full 2 deck aircraft to compete with the a380 say a 797 full double deck 800 seat capacity?
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Starlionblue
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:15 am

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 14):

Is it in the pipeline for future designs for a full 2 deck aircraft to compete with the a380 say a 797 full double deck 800 seat capacity?

Probably not. The VLA market seems only large enough for one aircraft right now, and barely at that. The development costs are immense and the market is relatively small so likely not a good idea to try to enter when there is already an option.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
pilotpip
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 15):
Probably not. The VLA market seems only large enough for one aircraft right now, and barely at that. The development costs are immense and the market is relatively small so likely not a good idea to try to enter when there is already an option.

Even that one aircraft isn't selling as well as projected.
DMI
 
jumbojim747
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:12 pm

Starlionblue.
Thanks for that info its sad that at times that the state of the market dictates what gets done and doesn't although its completely right.
On a wing and a prayer
 
rcair1
Crew
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RE: 747 Full Length Double Decks

Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 17):

Starlionblue.
Thanks for that info its sad that at times that the state of the market dictates what gets done and doesn't although its completely right.

Huh? The state of the market should dictate what gets done. Define "right" if the market won't support it.

What is 'right' about a plane that will not sell, or causes the Manf or airline to loose money, the passenger to lose service. That is the way of bankruptcy - or these days - government bailouts (even worse).
rcair1

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