avantime
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United 767 Nav Failure?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:35 am

Just came across this on Avweb:

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/A...bInsider_iPadBailout_207584-1.html

Quote:
Incident one occurred in August on a westbound United Boeing 767 from San Francisco to Hawaii. A pilot-trained passenger happened to notice that three hours out, the airplane made a slow 180-degree turn back toward the west coast. Shortly thereafter, a PA from the flight deck said that the aircraft had lost all navigational capability. The crew had declared an emergency, climbed to 34,500 feet for additional separation and was aiming for California. It eventually was assigned a hard altitude and landed in San Francisco without incident. As far as I know, the incident didn't make it into the news cycle. Our correspondent told us she spoke to the crew, who said they navigated home with a whiskey compass and an iPad…in a multi-million dollar airplane with a half-million dollar glass panel. All the better reason to keep a basic text on your iPad refreshing your memory of northerly compass turning error.


Can anyone here shed some more light on this incident? It looks pretty serious and I can't find any more info about this on the internet.
 
fr8mech
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:31 am

A triple IRS failure? Plus a dual GPS failure? Plus a triple VOR failure (when in close to the coast)? Dual ADF failure? Unless they lost all 4 screens and their RDMI's, I just can't see that happening.

The power failure that would cause all those problems would be noticed in the back.

Methinks there was more, or more probably, less to this story.
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strfyr51
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:12 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):

There coud be more to the story but does anybody know what plane it was?? just for Grins I could check the records but it's now November and that would be in long term history from August.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:45 pm

It's not a complete navigational capabiliy failure if you still have your compass. 
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rfields5421
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:31 pm

Three hours out - the plane would be beyond range of VOR or ADF stations.
 
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tb727
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:58 pm

Time to reissue sextons and teach pilots how to shoot stars!
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fr8mech
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:19 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 4):
Three hours out - the plane would be beyond range of VOR or ADF stations.

Yes, but IRS (3ea) & GPS (2ea) are not affected.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:46 pm

3 hrs out? heck they were closer to Hawaii! Yeah I know the continent is bigger.  
 
Max Q
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:30 am

Sounds like BS to me.


They may have turned back for all number of reasons but losing all three IRS computers and two GPS receivers is highly unlikely.
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TWA772LR
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:00 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 5):

Time to reissue sextons and teach pilots how to shoot stars!

Wasn't that the reason for the 737s eyebrows?  
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fr8mech
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:47 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 9):
Wasn't that the reason for the 737s eyebrows?


The DC8 had a sextant hole. The classic jumbos had a hole that was called the smoke evacuation port but the urban mythology amongst the maintenance folks is that is could also be used to take sightings.
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longhauler
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:34 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
The DC8 had a sextant hole.

Some of our older arctic B737s had a sextant hole, and those "arctic trained" had to use it on check rides. They also had an Astro Compass mount on the F/O's window!

Someone put a vacuum hose in one aircraft. One end would fit through the hole, the other end was used to clean out the cockpit!

Both an Astro Compass and a Sextant would have come in real handy if this B767 really did lose all navigation capability!
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KELPkid
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 9):
Wasn't that the reason for the 737s eyebrows?

Nope. No way you could do star shoot from one   They are there because the FAA felt the old Boeing section 41 didn't have very good visibility in the traffic pattern while turning...
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KELPkid
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:09 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
It's not a complete navigational capabiliy failure if you still have your compass.

Yikes...wonder if 767 captains and FO's practice compass turns in the sim  Wow!
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stratosphere
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:19 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 8):
They may have turned back for all number of reasons but losing all three IRS computers and two GPS receivers is highly unlikely.

Maybe they had something similar to this happen:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...208X05844&ntsbno=NYC96IA116&akey=1
 
Max Q
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:42 am

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 14):

They may have turned back for all number of reasons but losing all three IRS computers and two GPS receivers is highly unlikely.

Maybe they had something similar to this happen:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...key=1

They may have had any number of problems !


Until any further information is released (if it is) speculation is just that.


My point is, the loss of all navigational aids is highly unlikely.
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Starlionblue
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:26 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 13):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
It's not a complete navigational capabiliy failure if you still have your compass.

Yikes...wonder if 767 captains and FO's practice compass turns in the sim  


Well, I suppose UNOS and ANDS still apply. 
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SKC
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 7):
3 hrs out? heck they were closer to Hawaii!

Maybe geographically, but quite possibly not closer when factoring in headwinds. May not have passed their equal time point, thus it was quicker to turn around and head back than to continue.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:41 pm

Yes I know but as a rule it's about 5 hrs from the coast. Flew it last week, flying it again this afternoon.
 
fr8mech
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:46 pm

Quoting avantime (Thread starter):
Can anyone here shed some more light on this incident? It looks pretty serious and I can't find any more info about this on the internet.

I'm a skeptic on this incident. So, I looked at some prints and tried to make 3ea IRS fail and both GPS fail without letting the people in the back know (i.e. dual IDG failure, with a failure of the standby buss) and I can't do it.

I'm calling BS on a story that was designed to make a point about electronics on aircraft.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:28 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
I'm calling BS on a story that was designed to make a point about electronics on aircraft.

I tend to agree with you fr8mech.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:02 pm

Seems very difficult to believe considering the range of navigation equipment available on the B767.
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KELPkid
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:27 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
Seems very difficult to believe considering the range of navigation equipment available on the B767.

I wonder if they still carry an ADF receiver, as NDB's have been decomissioned by the droves here in the US. I realize that NDB's are still pretty common overseas, but even when NDB's were still fairly common in the US, in general aviation planes, if you had a GPS onboard, it was much more convienient and simpler to navigate using GPS overlay, especially when IFR.

If you have an ADF receiver, you can at least home in on a powerful AM radio station...

I know that other long range navigation systems (like Omega/VLF and LORAN) have been supplanted by GPS and GPS alone (well, with IRS as a backup on an airliner).

Once the aircraft was within ~130 miles of the US coast, the navigation system woud have started to pick up VOR/DME (assuming that much was operable...).
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Viscount724
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
The DC8 had a sextant hole.

Sextant in use on a DC-8.

http://www.nicolamarras.it/calcolatoria/nav/dc8-sextant.jpg
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting SKC (Reply 17):
Maybe geographically, but quite possibly not closer when factoring in headwinds. May not have passed their equal time point, thus it was quicker to turn around and head back than to continue.

Without oceanic navigation ability, the chances of finding Hawaii are remote. However head back to the east and you will certainly find land.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 22):
I wonder if they still carry an ADF receiver, as NDB's have been decomissioned by the droves here in the US.

Not too many NDBs in the Pacific, so it's a moot point. But I'd be surprised if ADFs had been removed.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
I'm a skeptic on this incident. So, I looked at some prints and tried to make 3ea IRS fail and both GPS fail without letting the people in the back know (i.e. dual IDG failure, with a failure of the standby buss) and I can't do it.

What about a loss of power to the EFIS displays, so even if the IRS and GPS were functional they wouldn't be any use to steer by. I remember a 757 that happened to in Europe many years ago, but I forget the cause. They don't like heat, an equipment cooling failure could take them out.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
I'm calling BS on a story that was designed to make a point about electronics on aircraft.

Maybe it was the iPad the report mentioned they navigated with that caused the problems.  
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longhauler
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:31 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
Sextant in use on a DC-8.

That's not a DC-8 .... VC-10 maybe?
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fr8mech
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:12 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 24):
What about a loss of power to the EFIS displays,

I thought about that. In fact, if this is true, it's the most likely scenario. I believe the 4 screens all live on at least 3 different busses. Very unlikely.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 24):
They don't like heat, an equipment cooling failure could take them out.

Yup, they hate the heat, but in the air, with differential pressure, there should always be airflow across the system. In my opinion, too many failures would have to occur for this to happen. I've yet to see an equipment cooling failure, in the air, that caused a serious problem. On the ground? Yes. Boxes fry.

The more likely failure, in the EFIS system, is CRT failure from condensation. Typically, it's the EADI's that are affected because they sit above the EHSI's. The 767 has had this problem, but I've never heard of all 4 screens failing at the same time. Possible? Yes. Likely? No.

I'm guessing, that if this happened there would have been a service letter from Boeing immediately at warning operators of the potential and what the initial thoughts were.
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Jetlagged
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:34 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 26):
I thought about that. In fact, if this is true, it's the most likely scenario. I believe the 4 screens all live on at least 3 different busses. Very unlikely.

But it has happened to at least one 757. That wasn't over an ocean so radio navigation was still possible. I forget the cause, but it was back when glass cockpits were new so it caused a bit of a stir among glass cockpit sceptics.
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Max Q
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:20 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 24):

What about a loss of power to the EFIS displays, so even if the IRS and GPS were functional they wouldn't be any use to steer by.

As unlikely as that is you would still have a course to steer by referring to the legs page of the FMC computer.


And if ADF is fitted you can steer towards an NDB station using the RMI needles which are on a totally separate electromechanical gauge, if within range of a VOR station you can do the same with the VOR needles.
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rfields5421
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:50 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 6):
Yes, but IRS (3ea) & GPS (2ea) are not affected.

While I agree in principle - what about airline SOP.

At which point does United SOP consider the navigation system unreliable. When one IRS disagrees with the other two? When all three disagree on the aircraft position? When one GPS disagrees?

The iPAD part of the story is certainly BS.

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 18):
Yes I know but as a rule it's about 5 hrs from the coast.

If they did have navigation problems, turning back is a better procedure if they have fuel. Missing the Hawaiian Islands would be a major disaster, but it is hard to miss the west coast of North America.

My first US Navy squadron lost an aircraft in Sept 73 which had navigational issues (luckly the crew bailed out over the only ship in the JMSDF with an emparked helicopter at the time) and years later they lost another aircraft, and crew, which 'missed' Guam on a night flight from Japan.
 
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zeke
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
I looked at some prints and tried to make 3ea IRS fail and both GPS fail without letting the people in the back know (i.e. dual IDG failure, with a failure of the standby buss) and I can't do it.

What about the QF 744 incident into BKK ? A fault with the water drain in the galley caused water to go over the avionics, getting rid basically all of the electric busses except for AC4.

All they had left was the left hand side PFD[1] in degraded mode but with attitude, airspeed, altitude, vertical speed and ILS indications, the left hand side ND[2] in degraded mode, the left hand side CDU[3], the upper EICAS display including landing gear indication, all standby instruments, which indicated attitude, airspeed, altitude and the magnetic compass, EPR[4] readings for the No 4 engine only, indications of flap position for the right wing only, a single COM system with less than usual signal strength.

All of the generators were working normally, however with the avionics fault, they could not be used.
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fr8mech
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:04 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 30):

I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm saying that it's highly unlikely. And, it would require multiple failures. And, chances are the folks in the back would know about it.

The OP's link implied that the folks in the back did not know anything was happening until a lone "pilot-trained" passenger noticed a slow 180 deg turn (reminiscent of one of the 70's disaster movies). I suggest that just about anything that causes a complete navigation systems' failure would also have additional effects that would be noticed in the back.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 29):
what about airline SOP

That's a good question. I don't have that answer, but, would you rely on an iPAD and your wet compass or a IRS with no fault light? Even if all 3 IRS's drifted unacceptably, I'll suggest that a half-assed competent pilot could still navigate without having to revert to the wet compass as a primary means.
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rfields5421
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:24 pm

Quote:
I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm saying that it's highly unlikely. And, it would require multiple failures. And, chances are the folks in the back would know about it.

The more I think about this, the more I'm inclined to put this into the urban legend category.

Not for any of the valid reasons both against or for the technical possibility of the loss of the instruments - rather "How could the airline keep such an incident quiet?

In today's world of scanners, people posting about diversions frequently, how could they have kept the story down to one blogger with unnamed sources?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 30):
What about the QF 744 incident into BKK ? A fault with the water drain in the galley caused water to go over the avionics, getting rid basically all of the electric busses except for AC4.

Didn't that just take down the AC buses? They would have still had hot battery, capt DC, and standby. That would give you some (though certainly not full) navigation capability. Still much better than the alleged situation here.

Tom.
 
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zeke
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:14 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 32):

UA only do 4 flights a day from SFO to HNL, it shuld be easy to check with flight aware to see if the 124 odd flights for teh month made it to HNL. UA73 I think is the more likely flight to get the 767.
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KELPkid
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 32):
Not for any of the valid reasons both against or for the technical possibility of the loss of the instruments - rather "How could the airline keep such an incident quiet?

Seems like such a failure would be reportable to the FAA, NTSB, or both...that's been my thoughts throughout the day. In which case publicly available information can be pulled up....  
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longhauler
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:56 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 35):
Seems like such a failure would be reportable to the FAA, NTSB, or both...that's been my thoughts throughout the day. In which case publicly available information can be pulled up....

Not to mention ... on the inside, this alleged event would be HUGE, and every pilot of every B757/767 would be informed and warned ... and we haven't.
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COSPN
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:34 am

I dont think you have to be "pilot-trained" to notice the plane has done a 180 and heading back east...
 
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zeke
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:05 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 36):
Not to mention ... on the inside, this alleged event would be HUGE, and every pilot of every B757/767 would be informed and warned ... and we haven't.

Can I ask then what you were told about the S7 airlines 767 incident in October that had a similar loss of navigation and diverted Venice ?

I suspect you were told nothing....lots of incident occur, and even type rated pilots are not told about them.
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Starlionblue
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:08 am

Quoting COSPN (Reply 37):

I dont think you have to be "pilot-trained" to notice the plane has done a 180 and heading back east...

True. However most people would not notice.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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ptrjong
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:46 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 12):
They are there because the FAA felt the old Boeing section 41 didn't have very good visibility in the traffic pattern while turning...

And today it suddenly does?  
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longhauler
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 38):
Can I ask then what you were told about the S7 airlines 767 incident in October that had a similar loss of navigation and diverted Venice ?

I suspect you were told nothing....lots of incident occur, and even type rated pilots are not told about them.

I think it depends on the cause. I don't think the final report is issued yet. (If you mean the one a month ago, how did you hear about it?) There was however another Russian B767 about a year ago that returned to its point of departure due to a "navigation problem", however as details were not published, I am guessing it was not earth shattering nor safety related.

For example, after the A330 mishaps with the Thales pitot tubes, A330 crews here were given daily reports with possible solutions. Then when new procedures were issued by Airbus, all were placed in crew's mail boxes ... as well as emailed, and ... just in case one didn't see either of those, for the first month, crews scheduled to fly the A330 were telephoned at home by the A330/340 Manager of Flying making sure they were aware of new procedures.

I would suspect that if there were an issue with the B767/B757 navigation systems, that could possibly cause a complete loss of all navigation capability it would be huge news.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 35):
Seems like such a failure would be reportable to the FAA, NTSB, or both...that's been my thoughts throughout the day.

you bet it would be reported. nav failure in Class II airspace, absolutely.
 
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zeke
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:11 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):
I don't think the final report is issued yet

For may incidents, there is never any report or investigation issued by the relevant air safety investigators. That is often left to the operator and manufacturer to sort out. We investigate more incidents internally than what our local regulator does.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):

I would suspect that if there were an issue with the B767/B757 navigation systems, that could possibly cause a complete loss of all navigation capability it would be huge news.

Not at all.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):
For example, after the A330 mishaps with the Thales pitot tubes, A330 crews here were given daily reports with possible solutions. Then when new procedures were issued by Airbus, all were placed in crew's mail boxes ... as well as emailed, and ... just in case one didn't see either of those, for the first month, crews scheduled to fly the A330 were telephoned at home by the A330/340 Manager of Flying making sure they were aware of new procedures

That sounds silly. I am aware of pitot tube blockages on every airliner that is currently flying with the exception of the 787, maybe they just have not encountered the right conditions yet. There would be a dozen or so pitot tube blockages a year on A330s alone worldwide, most of them so minor the crew are not even aware of them, the more significant ones might last 5-10 seconds and may only involve one probe. We regularly have blockages on the A300, A320, A330, A340, 777, and 747, a lot of that come from the environment we are exposed to, being more prone to conditions where are outside the normal icing certification requirements.

In all of our cases, the aircraft kept flying, and landed safely, and in a lot of cases, without the crew even being aware that the pilot tube was obstructed at some stage in flight. AF447 did not crash because the pitot tube was blocked, it crashed because of the way the situation was managed. There was no reason why that aircraft could not have kept going to the destination.

As for promulgation of FCOM updates, we also have them by email, electronic, and hard copy updates, However that is normal for any update, often they come through every week or two.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
tdscanuck
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 43):
Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):
I don't think the final report is issued yet

For may incidents, there is never any report or investigation issued by the relevant air safety investigators.

That's true, but there's a huge swath of stuff in between what comes under the purview of the air safety investigators (which requires an actual or near incident) and what has to be reported to the OEM and the regulator.

I know what's on the required reporting list for the FAA (as type cert issuer for the 767, not as the airline regulator)...total nav failure would have to be reported if the OEM knew about it.

Tom.
 
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longhauler
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 43):
As for promulgation of FCOM updates, we also have them by email, electronic, and hard copy updates, However that is normal for any update, often they come through every week or two.

I think you missed my point. I am not talking about any mundane "update" where procedures have changed, or responses where changed from CHECK to SET.

I am talking about during an incident investigation be it an official governmental investigation, or an internal airline investigation ... something pops up that can not be explained, or worse, shows a trend. I used the A330 with Thales probes as an example as it was recent. Yes, now we know the cause, and yes now we know what brought down AF447 ... but until the CVR/FDRs were found, we didn't ... and speculation was rampant.

There were several A330/Thales incidents during airline operations that did not become public until the investigation of AF447. As information was spread worldwide, airlines were advised, Airbus revised procedures ... and here, A330 crews were updated daily! We realize now that it may have been "silly" as you state, as it may well have been a red herring, but during the investigation we did not have the luxury of knowing that!

Another excellent example was the B737. When the UA B737 went down at COS, it was "curious" at best. I recall, as I was a B737 F/O at the time. Other than normal cockpit talk and speculation, it wasn't given much thought. Then, 3 years later, I was a B737 Captain, and the US B737 went down in PIT under similar circumstances. Now it became a HUGE issue. One of the safest and most common airframes now was suspected of having an Achilles Heel.

Again, other incidents (there were several) became public, procedures were changed, and in this case, jet upset training and recovery became a part of recurrent simulator training. Also, the majority of B737 operators now advised their crews to "look out" for something similar. And several crews did see things that otherwise would have been overlooked that aided in the investigation.

So fast forward to today. A UA B767 is alleged to have had a total navigational error. I still can't see how, but we'll go with this. And as you state, there have been similar occurrences in the past. If this actually did occur there would be an investigation. If during that investigation it was shown there is an Achilles Heel with the aircraft or procedures, it would not be a secret! Everyone would know about it, at least at an internal level.

Boeing would be issuing statements with possible solutions and possible procedure changes. Also, Boeing would ask B757/B767 crews to "look out" for various hints that it may occur again.

That is why I am suspicious about this incident. If all we have ever heard about it, is some anonymous blog ... did it really happen?
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zeke
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 45):
I think you missed my point.

No I did not. For a while no one had information about AF447, and all sorts of speculation was about. When more information was available, it was apparent the crash had nothing to do with pitot tubes.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 45):
speculation was rampant

You can say that again.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 45):
There were several A330/Thales incidents during airline operations that did not become public until the investigation of AF447.

There has been lots, and it is not restricted to the A330, hence all the research into alternative methods.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 45):
As information was spread worldwide, airlines were advised, Airbus revised procedures

Do not think so, Airbus has sent out several OIT, however nothing has changed, they still ask people to just FLY they aircraft if it happened again.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 45):
A330 crews were updated daily

Rubbish, there was no drama or concern over them.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 45):
One of the safest and most common airframes now was suspected of having an Achilles Heel.

Again that is dramatic rubbish, there is nothing to show that the 737 is unsafe or has an "Achilles Heel'.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 45):
Again, other incidents (there were several) became public, procedures were changed, and in this case, jet upset training and recovery became a part of recurrent simulator training.

Yep, that went well for AA, nuff said. There is god training and bad training.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 45):
A UA B767 is alleged to have had a total navigational error. I still can't see how, but we'll go with this.

Lots of possibilities.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 45):
And as you state, there have been similar occurrences in the past. If this actually did occur there would be an investigation

Sure, that does not mean it makes the press. There would be a couple of report issued every week, that does not mean anything changes. Once a report is issued, the authority that issued the TCDS will look at it, and then maybe issue a AD, or they might just leave the manufacturer to deal with it.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 45):
If during that investigation it was shown there is an Achilles Heel with the aircraft or procedures, it would not be a secret! Everyone would know about it, at least at an internal level.

Not at all.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 45):

Boeing would be issuing statements with possible solutions and possible procedure changes. Also, Boeing would ask B757/B767 crews to "look out" for various hints that it may occur again.

Nope, Boeing has lawyers as well. If it meets the regulations, and is certified, it is safe by government standards.
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longhauler
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:46 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 46):
Do not think so, Airbus has sent out several OIT, however nothing has changed, they still ask people to just FLY they aircraft if it happened again.

One of the biggest changes was the introduction of the "Loss of Reliable Airspeed" drill. It had always been an OEB, with a checklist. However, during the investigation of AF447, it was moved to "Drill", (memory) status. At the time one of the suggestions for the loss of AF447 was the possible mishandling of the aircraft with an airspeed indication loss. This was before the CVR/FDRs were recovered, and while the Thales probes were still suspect.

Quoting zeke (Reply 46):
Rubbish, there was no drama or concern over them.

Perhaps not where you fly, but there sure was here. In fact, on reflection and reading your answers, I looked up old emails from Flight Operations and there they were. I say again, we now know that was not the cause for the loss of AF447, but we didn't know that then.

Quoting zeke (Reply 46):
Again that is dramatic rubbish, there is nothing to show that the 737 is unsafe or has an "Achilles Heel'.

Not now ... but there certainly was then. Or do you have another suggestion for the loss of the UA COS and US PIT aircraft? Granted, it was a million to one long shot, but that long shot resulted in two fatal accidents, and five other incidents were reported where the crew was able to get the aircraft to the ground using the then recently published handling suggestions.

Remember, my point was not suspicion of the B737, but that during the investigation of unusual circumstances, operators were advised.

Quoting zeke (Reply 46):
Yep, that went well for AA, nuff said. There is god training and bad training.

And there is salient training with regard to current issues with an investigation. That training may well have saved the five other aircraft. And, aiding in the investigation was the ability to investigate those five aircraft while they were still "whole".

Quoting zeke (Reply 46):
There would be a couple of report issued every week, that does not mean anything changes.

That is my point exactly ... these reports are issued every week. And to date ... we still have not read a report of this alleged loss of all navigation.

Quoting zeke (Reply 46):
Lots of possibilities.

OK, I'll bite. What could cause the loss of all navigation capabilities, IRS, GPS, VOR, ADFs? To the point that turning around and aiming for a larger land mass was a better idea? And ... there were no indications in the cabin of a loss of electrics.
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tdscanuck
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:07 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 46):
Quoting longhauler (Reply 45):

Boeing would be issuing statements with possible solutions and possible procedure changes. Also, Boeing would ask B757/B767 crews to "look out" for various hints that it may occur again.

Nope, Boeing has lawyers as well. If it meets the regulations, and is certified, it is safe by government standards.

Yes. I've written those types of communications. The lawyers have no say in them whatsoever. One of the very first actions when an OEM suspects an issue is an all-operator message ("MOM" or Multi-Operator Message) to airlines asking if they have any similar experiences. The lawyers don't enter in to it.

Tom.
 
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zeke
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RE: United 767 Nav Failure?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:03 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 47):
One of the biggest changes was the introduction of the "Loss of Reliable Airspeed" drill. It had always been an OEB, with a checklist

Standard Airbus QRH has always had it as a QRH item, the memory items have always been there. Have a look at the AF447 report you can see the standard QRH procedure at the time. Sounds like your company had its own QRH procedures, which might explain why your airline was nervous. Unreliable speed is a QRH procedure in every FAR 25 aircraft I have flown, the procedure regardless of manufacturer is much the same, thrust and attitude.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 47):

Perhaps not where you fly, but there sure was here.

We had a series of these events in the 1990s and changes all of our probes over to another supplier, we were not the only airline to do so. We have see these events on all fleets of aircraft we fly.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 47):

Not now ... but there certainly was then.

I still do not agree, did you see the FAA ground them ?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 47):
And to date ... we still have not read a report of this alleged loss of all navigation.

What sort of report are you expecting to see, it is not an accident.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 47):
What could cause the loss of all navigation capabilities, IRS, GPS, VOR, ADFs?

The QF event into BKK was just as a result of some water on an avionics bus. The 787 during flight testing I understand was just due to some FOD. Maybe someone left a spanner/screwdriver behind and they hit some bumps causing a short ? Spilt beverage on the center console ? Inadvertent activation of the RAT ?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 47):
To the point that turning around and aiming for a larger land mass was a better idea?

Perhaps they were ETOPS and did not have the required equipment working to continue.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 48):
Yes. I've written those types of communications. The lawyers have no say in them whatsoever. One of the very first actions when an OEM suspects an issue is an all-operator message ("MOM" or Multi-Operator Message) to airlines asking if they have any similar experiences. The lawyers don't enter in to it.

I disagree Tom, history shows that the lawyers do get involved, an example would be the forward cargo doors self unlocking. The OEM denied that this was happening despite getting reports from several operators and one serious accident.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar

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