dlramp4life
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Cones On The Wings: 787

Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:06 am

After reading some trip reports about UA 787 trips I have noticed in pictures that the wings look to be over coned... Is there a reason why there cones surrounding the whole wing while the plane is being serviced?
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HAWK21M
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:14 pm

Safety cone purpose is to get the Attention of GSE operators/Aviation personnell about areas around the Aircraft.

Any pics of the description that you talk about.
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Gatorman96
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:30 pm

Are you referring to this thread?

United Boeing 787 Dreamliner Ride: IAH-LAX-IAH (by C767P Nov 10 2012 in Trip Reports)

The wings are most likely outlined for training purposes. It will give the rampers driving service vehicles etc. a sense of where the wings are since this is a brand new aircraft.
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dlramp4life
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 2):
Are you referring to this thread?

Yes, this is the thread.

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 2):
The wings are most likely outlined for training purposes. It will give the rampers driving service vehicles etc. a sense of where the wings are since this is a brand new aircraft.

But on 767,747,777 aircraft the wings are high enough off of the ground that a driver can drive under the wing when loading/unloading cans.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:50 am

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 3):
But on 767,747,777 aircraft the wings are high enough off of the ground that a driver can drive under the wing when loading/unloading cans.

At most airlines here in the U.S. it is forbidden to drive under the wings for any reason whatsoever per policy.
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comairguycvg
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:16 am

If I had a new baby like the 787, I would want as many cones around that sucker as I could get!
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dlramp4life
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:14 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
At most airlines here in the U.S. it is forbidden to drive under the wings for any reason whatsoever per policy.

On narrow body aircraft yes.
But on widebody aircraft you can drive under the wing with transporters as long as there is no can on it.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:17 am

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 3):
But on 767,747,777 aircraft the wings are high enough off of the ground that a driver can drive under the wing when loading/unloading cans.

Out here SOP forbids vehicles moving under the wings, unless its for a specific service purpose.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 6):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
At most airlines here in the U.S. it is forbidden to drive under the wings for any reason whatsoever per policy.

On narrow body aircraft yes.
But on widebody aircraft you can drive under the wing with transporters as long as there is no can on it.

Nope. Certainly not at UA.
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ak907
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:37 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):

At most airlines here in the U.S. it is forbidden to drive under the wings for any reason whatsoever per policy.

It depends on the airline. But your right, most won't allow it, with the exception of fuelers or maintenance trucks. Japanese airlines are also very big about this. But I work for an airline where we are allowed to drive under the wings, between engines, and even under the fuselage with tugs and empty dollies. It makes unloading and loading the lower deck of a 747 much easier.
 
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:53 pm

Quoting ak907 (Reply 9):
between engines

 Wow! A big no-no!!!   
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737tdi
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:46 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 3):
But on 767,747,777 aircraft the wings are high enough off of the ground that a driver can drive under the wing when loading/unloading cans.

At most airlines here in the U.S. it is forbidden to drive under the wings for any reason whatsoever per policy.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 8):
Nope. Certainly not at UA.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):
A big no-no!!!





Well now, an expert. Knows everything about everybody. Can't do this, Can't do that. I can drive wherever I want, as long as I don't hit the airplane. Watch the total encompassing statements. My golf cart can even drive under a wing. Oh my.! Don't know where you came up with this "most airlines" policy, but I have worked at a few and it is not a problem. Just don't hit the aircraft. It's like driving down the road, don't hit the folks in front or beside you. Not picking on you, just be real and speak of what you know. If you aren't sure/positive leave it alone unless you Caveat.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:23 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 11):
Don't know where you came up with this "most airlines" policy, but I have worked at a few and it is not a problem. Just don't hit the aircraft.

Not speaking for most airlines, just where I work, but if you drive under the aircraft footprint and you're not a service truck moving into your service position on that aircraft, you get disciplined at best and, by policy anyway, can be fired (and should be).

Tom.
 
737tdi
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:19 pm

Tom: Come on now, why would you move under an aircraft if you are not a service truck? See what I'm saying here? Folks are bringing up crap that just does not happen. It's not like an Interstate is running under your aircraft??? Stupid is as Stupid does. Forest Gump once said....
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:39 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):
Not speaking for most airlines, just where I work, but if you drive under the aircraft footprint and you're not a service truck moving into your service position on that aircraft, you get disciplined at best and, by policy anyway, can be fired (and should be).

   Thank you, Tom. You are spot on.
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737tdi
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:52 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):
Not speaking for most airlines, just where I work, but if you drive under the aircraft footprint and you're not a service truck moving into your service position on that aircraft, you get disciplined at best and, by policy anyway, can be fired (and should be).

Thank you, Tom. You are spot on

Oh, I absolutely agree, if your aren't a service truck or service cart you never drive under an aircraft. I go under to service oil or hydraulics or change a tire or fix a hydralic leak or what you would know nothing about. AS.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:33 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 15):

Wait, what?! Your post 13 doesn't jive with post 15. First you disagree with Tom and a couple posts later, you do a 180? I don't understand. Either you agree with Tom and I or you don't.   
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tdscanuck
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:20 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 13):

Tom: Come on now, why would you move under an aircraft if you are not a service truck? See what I'm saying here? Folks are bringing up crap that just does not happen.

I've seen plenty of people go under a wing tip to avoid driving all the way around. Less commonly, you'll see short vehicles try to go under tall aircraft to get to the next stall because it's shorter than going out and back in.

I agree, there's never any actual legitimate *need* to do it but it happens pretty frequently because of a combination of complacency, lack of training, and people thinking they know it's safe...right up until they hit the aircraft. I used to do nacelle and fuselage structural repair...lots and lots and lots of people hit the aircraft.

Tom.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:48 am

Quoting ak907 (Reply 9):
But I work for an airline where we are allowed to drive under the wings, between engines, and even under the fuselage with tugs and empty dollies

Wow....This must be some Airline.......How many GSE Impact damages till date....  

Im not saying it has to be avoided,but I would think most Airlines would have that SOP in place, to reduce damage to an Expensive aircraft & unnecessary delays due AOG.
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ak907
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:34 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):
How many GSE Impact damages till date

None related to this procedure, because it is impossible to hit the airplane where we drive. The 747 fuselage is about 6 feet off the ground, our tugs are at most 5 feet tall, so no matter what you do you won't hit it. There are antennas, but they are far enough out of the way to be not a problem. Between the engines is not a problem either because number 1 and 4 are too high, while the fuel truck is in the way for us to hit number 2 and 3. Keep in mind that I'm talking about a tug and two empty pallet dollies or a beltloader. Nothing else is allowed to go under the fuselage. You might say it is risky and dangerous, but it greatly decreases cargo movement times and makes approaching the loaders easier.

We used to have this airstart unit that had really short hoses on it. To park it properly, we had to drive that one between the wing gear and the number 3 engine. It was a tight fit but by using a marshaller, we never had an accident doing this.

Like it's been said, most airlines don't allow this, but for this company this is SOP. We usually completely offload and upload a 747-400F in about 2 to 2-1/2 hours.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting ak907 (Reply 19):
it is impossible to hit the airplane where we drive. The 747 fuselage is about 6 feet off the ground, our tugs are at most 5 feet tall, so no matter what you do you won't hit it.

  . I'm dying to know what airline you work for so that this can be reported. I have a very hard time believing you actually do this and/or if you're just trolling on this thread not really an airline employee.
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting ak907 (Reply 19):
Between the engines is not a problem either because number 1 and 4 are too high, while the fuel truck is in the way for us to hit number 2 and 3.

You may want to make sure everyone is briefed if you're carrier ever gets a 747-8F as those engine hangs a little lower   

bt
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dlramp4life
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):

I am not disagreeing with you and policy varies from airline to airline or service provider to service provider but at my airline the widebody that we service is a 767. We cone our wings and engines with two cones and PVC pipe running through the middle looking like a hurdle. So pretty much this with 36' cones:

So we have the engine pretty much "fortified" in these hurdles, if you can't see them then you should not be on the ramp. We are allowed to drive under the wing with empty transporters and the operator MUST drive away from the engine when offloading cans and MUST drive towards the engine when on loading cans. I know it varies from airline to airline but that is how we do it at my airline and station.

Now driving under a wing to cut corners, that is something worth getting pulled into the office over.
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ak907
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 22):
I'm dying to know what airline you work for so that this can be reported. I have a very hard time believing you actually do this and/or if you're just trolling on this thread not really an airline employee.

These are the best pictures I can find on my computer. They don't show it as well so if you want I can snap some more this weekend if I see it happen. I found out today that our station is the only one allowed, and had to get a special approval from the airline to do so.

http://imgur.com/a/ZfUOr

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 22):
We are allowed to drive under the wing with empty transporters and the operator MUST drive away from the engine when offloading cans and MUST drive towards the engine when on loading cans.

That's how it is for us too. In the pictures you can see the lower deck unloading, and the main deck loading containers.
 
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:57 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
At most airlines here in the U.S. it is forbidden to drive under the wings for any reason whatsoever per policy.

*Most*

At Delta, it is acceptable to drive under the wing of 757s and better. It is fine for widebodies and against policy for narrowbodies (exception being 757s). Not just service vehicles. Bag tugs too.

Of course, standard "buffer" rules always apply. If you have no business in the footprint you shouldn't be driving under the wing (some bag driver taking a shortcut to get from B07 to B03. If you are dropping or picking up bags for that a/c then "cutting away" (following the edge of the trailing edge) as to not drive under the wing isn't required. Wingtip cones are no placed on widebodies (and 757s) because of this. It is allowed. Everything else will have a wingtip hurdle cone and you should never drive under. Even if it means backing up after dropping your bag so that you can "cut away" and not drive under.

[Edited 2012-11-20 20:06:29]
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HAWK21M
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:04 am

Quoting ak907 (Reply 19):
Like it's been said, most airlines don't allow this, but for this company this is SOP.

Whats the SOP then for driving motorised vehicles under the wings near the fuel vents...... 
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ak907
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:35 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 25):
Whats the SOP then for driving motorised vehicles under the wings near the fuel vents

The same as maintenance trucks or fuel trucks or any other vehicle driving under the wing.  
 
ha763
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:10 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
Quoting ak907 (Reply 19):
it is impossible to hit the airplane where we drive. The 747 fuselage is about 6 feet off the ground, our tugs are at most 5 feet tall, so no matter what you do you won't hit it.

  . I'm dying to know what airline you work for so that this can be reported. I have a very hard time believing you actually do this and/or if you're just trolling on this thread not really an airline employee.

This was our procedure at our station and this was for JAL 747s. I was tasked to update our local SOP and had to make sure it did not conflict with JAL's SOP. Our local SOP also had to be approved by JAL and we also had audits performed by JAL management from the head office. Not once did they say we had to change our procedure.

Boeing's ACAPS for the 747-100/-200/-300/-SP/-400/-400ER shows tugs with empty dollies under the fuselage for loading and unloading, so it is an acceptable procedure.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7474sec5.pdf
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7471sec5.pdf
 
max550
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:39 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Thread starter):
After reading some trip reports about UA 787 trips I have noticed in pictures that the wings look to be over coned... Is there a reason why there cones surrounding the whole wing while the plane is being serviced?

When we arrived in ORD from IAH there were no cones under the wings. It looks like they only used them at IAH and LAX. Probably just a precaution, wouldn't want the publicity and cancellations that would be caused by a damaged wing in the first couple days of flight.
Could also be because of all the extra activity around the 787, with people on the ramp taking pictures and stuff you would want to add something extra to warn service vehicles to watch out.
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:26 am

I have worked for Evergreen EAGLE, ASIG, Delta and United. All 4 companies had different policies regarding driving under the wing and the coning of aircraft. The one thing that was consistant was driving between the engine and the fuselage. None of the companies that I worked for allowed that.
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:22 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 29):
I have worked for Evergreen EAGLE, ASIG, Delta and United. All 4 companies had different policies regarding driving under the wing and the coning of aircraft. The one thing that was consistant was driving between the engine and the fuselage. None of the companies that I worked for allowed that.

And from what I remember seeing in CLE (I flew through there a lot in 2010 positive space on CO) they didn't cone the wings of their 757s either.
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dlramp4life
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 30):

We always cone the wings, reguardless of aircraft type. The wings are also conned with a hurdle cone.
I will do some research into the GOM about it but I think it is just a station policy
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:14 am

Definately station specific.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 31):

Go to aircraft specifics then an a/c, choose servicing then go to GSE positioning. Wingtip cones are present for narrowbodies (except the 757s) but not for widebodies.

[Edited 2012-11-23 21:17:12]

[Edited 2012-11-23 21:20:42]
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dlramp4life
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 32):

I will look into it, thank you for the information.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:31 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 30):
And from what I remember seeing in CLE (I flew through there a lot in 2010 positive space on CO) they didn't cone the wings of their 757s either.

Out here all Types get safety coned......including the B757s.
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fuelfool
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RE: Cones On The Wings: 787

Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:23 am

I have parked a fuel truck between the engines (pulling in from the tail) on DC-8s a lot. We had gates were that was the only way to get to the fuel ports. Same on 747s.
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