MikeM2648
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Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:24 pm

I have not heard of or seen other pics of 787 windows with this trouble so I'm sharing. This is from my window at seat 21L on United N26906 on the 10th of this month. It looked the same the next morning when i rode it a 2nd time. I believe only the layer of glass with the dimming tech is cracked. The plane is brand new and it got me wondering if this is turning out to be a common issue or if I saw something new / rare.

United 787 N26906 - Broken window layer in flight on 11/10/2012


United 787 N26906 - Broken window layer in flight on 11/10/2012
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:47 pm

Interesting.

Seeing the aircraft is new, I'd say it's a defective interior window pane.
I'm not sure of the electrical currents involved in the system, I'm thinking not enough to induce a lot of heat that would entail large temperature shocks over time.

I'm assuming changing them isn't very difficult, even with the polarizing system.

It will be interesting to see how the system copes with time and cycles. Always the downside of introducing a new piece of tech...
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CM
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:07 pm

The 787 window has three separate panes. A structural outer pane, a "dust" pane on the cabin side, and a dimmable pane in between. The dimmable pane is two thin sheets of glass with an electrochromic gel sandwitched inside. If the dimmable pane is defective, or if it is damaged on installation, the heat of applying a current the gel can cause one of the glass sheets to crack. As seen in the photos, this can make for some really interesting visual effects. The current applied to the gel is very low, measured in mA.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:49 am

Quoting MikeM2648 (Thread starter):
I believe only the layer of glass with the dimming tech is cracked.

Yep. Cracks in either of the other two panes don't cause that cool localized tinting.

Quoting MikeM2648 (Thread starter):
The plane is brand new and it got me wondering if this is turning out to be a common issue or if I saw something new / rare.

I've seen it before but rarely...relative to number of hours it's certainly not common.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 1):
I'm assuming changing them isn't very difficult, even with the polarizing system.

Changing the dimmable is pretty quick (something like 20 minutes). The inner dust pane just pops out, then you can pop the dimmable pane out and pull its connector loose (it hooks into the dimmable switch just below the window).

Tom.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:28 am

I thought the Dimmer control knob would be a Maintenance issue if not handled well by pax....This is another snag on the window.looks like the dimmer section screen has shorted out.
Anyone aware of the location of the same.
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sweair
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:26 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 4):

Why is this worse than a broken blinder? I hardly think its worse than the old blinder that quite often brakes and gets stuck.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 1):

Seeing the aircraft is new, I'd say it's a defective interior window pane.

I will agree. It seemed that the crack propagated from the left edge from some sort of anomaly. It grew sporadically until that final run of sweeping curve that started half way across the pane.

If it started at the edge it could be more of a manufacturing defect. Any luggage impact could have aggravated the defect that was already there.

bt
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MikeM2648
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:57 pm

There were 6 more tiny little cracks all originating at the forward edge of the window. They were no more than 1cm in length and were not noticeable unless you were looking for them. The window would still go from clear to fully dimmed in the non-cracked area. It is clear in the first picture and in the 2nd I have dimmed it several notches.

-Mike
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:28 pm

Window damage was mentioned in this trip report:

United Boeing 787 Dreamliner Ride: IAH-LAX-IAH (by C767P Nov 10 2012 in Trip Reports)

Quote:
One window was already damaged. Apparently someone hit it with luggage.

Not sure if its the same aircraft though.
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tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:37 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 4):
This is another snag on the window.looks like the dimmer section screen has shorted out.
Anyone aware of the location of the same.

Location of the dimmer pane? It's between the dust pane and the stuctural pane. The non-cracked portion of the window still dims when this happens.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 6):
If it started at the edge it could be more of a manufacturing defect. Any luggage impact could have aggravated the defect that was already there.

There isn't really any way to have a luggage impact...from the inside you hit the dust pane, not the dimmer pane. From teh outside, you hit the structural pane. Unless it was hit with luggage while being installed, but that seems really unlikely.

Tom.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:43 pm

I'm curious if people have seen this on the ANA aircraft.

If it's just the United plane, then it could be a bad batch of windows.

bt
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:46 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 10):
I'm curious if people have seen this on the ANA aircraft.

I've not seen reports of it. There has been one trip report where the dimming layer failed clear, so NH used a stick-on shade.
 
mffoda
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:07 am

Clearly, the windows in the first photo are just fine... Those are obviously wing cracks  
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bikerthai
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:28 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 12):
.. Those are obviously wing cracks

No, no, no, composite wings don't crack, they just de-laminate . . .   . What you are seeing is Z direction de-lamination.   

bt
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:11 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 9):
Location of the dimmer pane? It's between the dust pane and the stuctural pane. The non-cracked portion of the window still dims when this happens.

Was indicating the probable location of the shorting source.......anyone aware.
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SXDFC
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:44 pm

If these problems continue to occur, you think Boeing will come up with a classic pull down window shade option for the 787?
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bikerthai
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:54 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 15):
If these problems continue to occur, you think Boeing will come up with a classic pull down window shade option for the 787?

Only if the cracked windows do not dim completely. No one here have mentioned if that was the case.

As Tom have said, changing the windows is relatively simple. For a pull-down shade, if you need to change those, you have to take out the sidewall liner. (which may also be easy . . . as I have not seen one of those changed either).

bt

[Edited 2012-11-27 11:55:27]
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:24 am

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 15):
If these problems continue to occur, you think Boeing will come up with a classic pull down window shade option for the 787?

I thought ANA was opting for the same....
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BoeEngr
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:29 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
Quoting SXDFC (Reply 15):
If these problems continue to occur, you think Boeing will come up with a classic pull down window shade option for the 787?

I thought ANA was opting for the same....

No, there is no option for shades on the 787. ANA's concerns with the windows have, to my understanding, been resolved.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 18):
ANA's concerns with the windows have, to my understanding, been resolved.

How was it resolved to NAs satisfaction.
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COEWR787
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
How was it resolved to NAs satisfaction.

I couldn't quite figure out what ANA's concern really was. Was it the case that the early 787's windows did not dim as much as they do now? The dimmed windows on the sunny side of the United 787 that I flew in pretty much shut out almost all light AFAICT.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:02 am

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 20):
I couldn't quite figure out what ANA's concern really was.

That the intensity in dark position was not totally dark & the control knob was too fragile.
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BoeEngr
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):

How was it resolved to NAs satisfaction.

I don't know all the details. I was told, internally, that changes had been made to the dimming and ANA is now happy. If any non-proprietary details are made available, I'll let you know.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
the control knob was too fragile.

This I had not heard. I'm not aware of any concerns they had about the control switches. Do you have any sources or details?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:53 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):

That the intensity in dark position was not totally dark & the control knob was too fragile.

There is no knob. It's a button.
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flood
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 22):
This I had not heard. I'm not aware of any concerns they had about the control switches.

A friend of mine flew out of IAH last Friday and when I jokingly asked him if he broke the window from playing with it throughout the whole flight, he said it was already broken when he boarded. Not the window itself, but the buttons - which he said looked like they had been pushed in too far.

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 22):
I was told, internally, that changes had been made to the dimming and ANA is now happy.

Don't they still offer supplementary "stick-on" window shades?
Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window (by duncan16 Sep 16 2012 in Civil Aviation)

In skimming through above thread, reply 31 mentioned defective controls as well.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:57 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
There is no knob. It's a button.

I wonder if that is part of why they are getting broken in service. People tend to "mash" buttons when they don't get the desired response, and I wonder how quick a button press yields a darkening or lightening of the window  

Just putting my human factors studies to use   
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kanban
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:14 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 25):
I wonder if that is part of why they are getting broken in service. People tend to "mash" buttons when they don't get the desired response, and I wonder how quick a button press yields a darkening or lightening of the window

It's like people hammering on the cross walk buttons as though repeated action speeds the process.. dummies!!!
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 25):
People tend to "mash" buttons when they don't get the desired response, and I wonder how quick a button press yields a darkening or lightening of the window

The button guys are aware of this problem; that's why there is an LED bezel around the buttons that responds immediately so you know the system "heard" you. The LED for the level you selected flashes while the window is transitioning, then it goes solid when the window hits the target level.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:36 am

Quoting BoeEngr (Reply 22):
This I had not heard. I'm not aware of any concerns they had about the control switches. Do you have any sources or details?

From folks at ANA....Nothing in the press though......
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ikramerica
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:27 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 26):

In some locales, like Southern California, repeated presses do have an impact. Super efficient (read: power hungry) transportation engineers decide when to switch the lights based on overall traffic demand, both historic (time of day) and dynamic (current demand).

Not enough current demand? Light might stay against you longer. Or, only one car waiting to turn left? Let's skip their turn this time around and make them sit there for 4 additional minutes. After all, your time isn't valuable enough to matter.

Moral? Press the button more than once (but not right away), and the light MAY change faster...
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rwessel
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RE: Boeing 787 Pax Window W/ Cracked Layer

Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:11 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 29):
In some locales, like Southern California, repeated presses do have an impact. Super efficient (read: power hungry) transportation engineers decide when to switch the lights based on overall traffic demand, both historic (time of day) and dynamic (current demand).

Not enough current demand? Light might stay against you longer. Or, only one car waiting to turn left? Let's skip their turn this time around and make them sit there for 4 additional minutes. After all, your time isn't valuable enough to matter.

Surely you have to see some value in maximizing traffic flow? What about the valuable time of all the other drivers?

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