flyenthu
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Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:50 am

Hi,

Do ultra long haul flights have two sets of pilot crew because of the long duration flights? Last year while flying from IAH to DXB in business, I remember that we were attended by two different sets of cabin crew. One set worked the first and last leg of the flight. The second set worked the middle part- pretty much the transatlantic and Europe part. I was wondering if the pilot crew also rotated in the same flight?

Thank you!
 
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TK787
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:03 am

Yes.
TK, like most other carriers have 3 pilots on most long haul flights, like IST-JFK B777. 2 ON while one resting.
For longer flights more pilots on board. TK uses 4 pilots for IST-LAX B777 flights. Two ON, two Resting.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:12 am

Quoting TK787 (Reply 1):
2 ON while one resting.

Then wouldn't one pilot go over their limit of hours?
Beauty is watching a 787 bank to make a short final. Bliss is watching that 787 with a good beer. Nirvana is all of that with a beautiful woman on your side.
 
wilco737
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:13 am

Quoting flyenthu (Thread starter):

We at LH do not have any flight where we have 4 pilots on board. Our longest flight is FRA-EZE: 3 pilots. 1 resting, 2 on duty up front.
The cabin crew is resting as well. The first service is done, then one part is going to bed, the other is on duty and then they swap and the 2nd service is done by the whole crew again.

wilco737
  
 
UA787DEN
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:20 am

3-man rotation is often as follows
Person A works the first 2/3 of the flight
Person B works the first and last 3rd (senior captain often does this)
Person C works the last 2/3 of the flight.
There are only ever 2 people at once, and everyone works similar hours

I have occasionally seen, often for 3-man training flights or flights workable by 2 people:
Captain runs the entire flight, and the FO switches halfway or every quarter.

The FAA has rules about going over the 8 hour limit. It is allowed, but only by flying one long haul flight, and the pilot must have extra rest after. An airline cannot have a pilot run 10 hours of A320 short haul. Someone else.may elaborate if they choose.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:08 am

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 4):

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.  
Beauty is watching a 787 bank to make a short final. Bliss is watching that 787 with a good beer. Nirvana is all of that with a beautiful woman on your side.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:28 am

The shifts also depends on whether there are cruise pilots or not. Those will typically only be in the seat above 24000 feet or some such. Not all airlines have cruise pilots though. So you might have one Captain, one F/O and one S/O (second officer), with the Captain and F/O handling the first and last bits together, and both being spelled by the S/O in cruise while they rest in sequence. With four crew you could have one Captain, two F/Os and one S/O but the same sort of principles apply. The S/O will only be in the seat over a certain altitude.

Rest days can be predicated on length of duty AND number of time zones crossed. The more of either, the longer the subsequent rest.
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sciurusmdg
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:34 pm

I have a question about NetJets/ similar outfits- on a lot of their LR jets (Gulfstream 550 etc) there are 2 crew and (to my knowledge, apart from new Globals) no crew rest. However these planes are quite capable of going further than LHR-GRU or similar... what happens on board for these flights?
 
FlyboyOz
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:49 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
So you might have one Captain, one F/O and one S/O (second officer), with the Captain and F/O handling the first and last bits together, and both being spelled by the S/O in cruise while they rest in sequence.

Yes... that's right...that's what I have heard from the pilots.

[Edited 2013-01-07 15:53:28]
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roseflyer
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:02 am

You might have been served by different crew members, but I don’t know of any airline that has multiple sets of cabin crew on a flight. Usually everyone works for the first meal which is the main production. Then they stagger their breaks. Depending on what the second meal is, all the crew may be working for it or it may be a partial crew if it is just a light snack. The majority of work for the cabin crew is the meal service. After the meal service, half - two/thirds can be on break since there is little work in cruise.

As for pilot crew. SQ has 5 crew on their ultra long haul flights that rotate since above 16 hours can require 5 pilots. 2 captains and 3 first officers (I think). Some airlines will operate ultra long haul with 2 captains and 2 first officers or 1 captain and 3 first officers.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:23 am

Quoting sciurusmdg (Reply 7):
I have a question about NetJets/ similar outfits- on a lot of their LR jets (Gulfstream 550 etc) there are 2 crew and (to my knowledge, apart from new Globals) no crew rest. However these planes are quite capable of going further than LHR-GRU or similar... what happens on board for these flights?

Autopilot flies while the crew sleeps.   Jokes aside, there may be no need for a designated crew rest. A nice reclinable seat works.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
AR385
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:30 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 3):
Our longest flight is FRA-EZE: 3 pilots. 1 resting, 2 on duty up front.

You are right, of course,but back in 2010 when I took that flight, in November, there were 4 cockpit crew. Maybe training? And what type of training would it be?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:35 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 3):
Our longest flight is FRA-EZE: 3 pilots. 1 resting, 2 on duty up front.

You are right, of course,but back in 2010 when I took that flight, in November, there were 4 cockpit crew. Maybe training? And what type of training would it be?

Training would be either a new captain or F/O getting checked out, or a recurrent check. Quite a large number of flights are actually training flights. Much more efficient do this kind of training while carrying passengers than in the sim or an empty plane.

Could have been an extra pilot deadheading also maybe?
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wilco737
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:10 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
You are right, of course,but back in 2010 when I took that flight, in November, there were 4 cockpit crew. Maybe training? And what type of training would it be?
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
raining would be either a new captain or F/O getting checked out, or a recurrent check. Quite a large number of flights are actually training flights. Much more efficient do this kind of training while carrying passengers than in the sim or an empty plane.

Could have been an extra pilot deadheading also maybe?

Back then it was flown by 4 pilots. Same to SIN, but the conditions canged and the contract were renegotiated which made it possible to fly it with 3 pilots. The EZE flight is very close to the max duty time for 3 pilots. So 20 minutes delay and you have to call a standby crew.
That's the reason the 744 is still flying to EZE, the 340 would need longer on that flight and you would need a 4th pilot. No A vs B war here, but it is fact that the 340 flies slower and on such a long flight it makes a difference between 3 and 4 pilots.

And deadheading crew is always sitting in the cabin. Our contract doesn't allow crews to fly on the jumpseats. So they need to have a seat.

wilco737
  

[Edited 2013-01-07 19:11:56]
 
AR385
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:35 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 13):
Back then it was flown by 4 pilots. Same to SIN, but the conditions canged and the contract were renegotiated which made it possible to fly it with 3 pilots. The EZE flight is very close to the max duty time for 3 pilots. So 20 minutes delay and you have to call a standby crew.

Interesting. We were delayed by about 35 mins. from departure time. The FA told me it was due to being overweight and having to offload cargo. F was full, there was 1 empty seat on C and Y had 6 empty seats. The 744 was D-ABVB. It was a fantastic flight.
 
UA787DEN
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:13 am

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 8):

Yep. I was going to elaborate on it later. It really depends on the airline for normal ops, and the pilots make the final call. If crew members are all different ranks (a la CX) a cruise pilot will normally be used.

If a crew is similar ranking or seniority, and on some airlines, it is a simple rotation. The captain will fly TO and landing generally. The FOs will generally each handle a TO and landing. Often times, an FO will still end up doing most of the autopilot babysitting. It won't be split between the two.
Same thing for 4 pilots (also used some by CX and others)

Some airlines will have a Captain/FO pair running TO and landing, with a SO cruise crew. Others will have two film crews, switching at regular intervals.

These days, a cruise pilot crew often costs less and is used more.
 
wilco737
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:17 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 14):
Interesting. We were delayed by about 35 mins. from departure time. The FA told me it was due to being overweight and having to offload cargo. F was full, there was 1 empty seat on C and Y had 6 empty seats. The 744 was D-ABVB. It was a fantastic flight.

Yes, that can happen and then there can be made a duty time extention. It cannot be done by the company, only by the captain. And then you can have a duty time of 21 hours.

wilco737
  
 
FlyboyOz
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:10 am

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 15):
These days, a cruise pilot crew often costs less and is used more.

True... I told him (a cruise pilot) that he is lucky that he doesnt have to worry about lots of work to do for take off and landing. lol

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
Not all airlines have cruise pilots though

Really... I didn't know that.

Wilco... LH doesn't have cruise pilots? Does it mean that pilots - (first and second officers) are allowed to do take off and landing?
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wilco737
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:13 am

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 17):
Wilco... LH doesn't have cruise pilots? Does it mean that pilots - (first and second officers) are allowed to do take off and landing?

We don't have 2nd officers. We have First officer and senior first officer. The Senior First officer takes the left seat during cruise when the captain is on his rest. But all FO's and SFO's are allowed to take off and land.
We have a couple CRC's left, they are not allowed to take off and land.

Actually, we do have 2nd officer, but those are the guys just getting from the flight school. During their line training they are called 2nd officers but visually cannot be identified (look the same like FO). After their final check on the line they become First Offciers.

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Starlionblue
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:56 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 18):
Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 17):
Wilco... LH doesn't have cruise pilots? Does it mean that pilots - (first and second officers) are allowed to do take off and landing?

We don't have 2nd officers. We have First officer and senior first officer. The Senior First officer takes the left seat during cruise when the captain is on his rest. But all FO's and SFO's are allowed to take off and land.

AFAIK CX second officers are type rated and qualified to land the aircraft. They stay current in the sim.
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Mr AirNZ
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:10 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
AFAIK CX second officers are type rated and qualified to land the aircraft. They stay current in the sim.

S/O's at Cathay do not receive a full type rating.
 
FlyboyOz
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:34 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 18):
CRC

What does CRC stand for?

Thanks for explanation. It's so interesting to talk about it.  
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Starlionblue
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 20):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
AFAIK CX second officers are type rated and qualified to land the aircraft. They stay current in the sim.

S/O's at Cathay do not receive a full type rating.

Ah thx. And so what do they get?
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Mr AirNZ
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:22 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 22):
Ah thx. And so what do they get?

A P2X rating from the HKCAD that allows them to act as a relief pilot.
 
wilco737
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:35 am

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 21):
What does CRC stand for?

Something like Crew Relief Crew. Usually we call them Crew relief pilot.

At LH Cargo we still have a couple. I haven't seen one on the 744/ 748 yet. But I heard there are 1 or 2 left.

wilco737
  
 
flyingturtle
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:36 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 24):

How I love the word "CRC". Crew relief crew. In signal transmission, CRC means "cyclic redundancy check".  

Do the CRC pilots have less strict training or medical standards? Some of the old flight engineers turned into cruise pilots, but would it be possible to be a CRC pilot from the beginning?


David
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FlyboyOz
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:38 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 25):
Some of the old flight engineers turned into cruise pilots, but would it be possible to be a CRC pilot from the beginning?

Good question... I am curious about it too!!
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wilco737
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:25 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 25):
Do the CRC pilots have less strict training or medical standards? Some of the old flight engineers turned into cruise pilots, but would it be possible to be a CRC pilot from the beginning?

They have different training as they do not need to land the airplane. but they get training on the airplane, they are able to fly it, operate the autopilot and handle abnormal situations.
CRC from the beginning? I doubt it to be honest. But I am not sure.

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flyenthu
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:32 am

After EK 211 took off and leveled, I saw, who I believe was the captain, wearing an informal crew t-shirt and headed to their resting area at the back of the plane. He had also announced there was a secondary crew as well. My flight took over 16 hrs and having 2 crew sets made sense.
 
flyenthu
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:35 pm

My flight actually took almost 17 hours- 16 hrs and 49 min.
 
bhill
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:17 pm

Curious, so how is "rest" time actually, legally, calculated? Time away from the flight deck with no flying "responsibilities," or just reclining in place with no "hands on the stick or buttons?"
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Fabo
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:50 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 24):
Something like Crew Relief Crew. Usually we call them Crew relief pilot.

Cruise Relief Crew?
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Starlionblue
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:47 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 29):
My flight actually took almost 17 hours- 16 hrs and 49 min.

With the crew briefing and pre-flighting you're adding another couple of hours, so the "flight" for them is closer to 19-20 hours.
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wilco737
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:57 am

Quoting Fabo (Reply 31):

Haha, yes of course. Crew relief crew doesn't make any sense. Thanks.

wilco737
  
 
kpc777
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:14 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 9):


Thanks for that information! I've always been curious about SQ's EWR-SIN flight and how it was crewed. I was always hesitant to start another thread.

Do you know if the aircraft has a crew rest area or do the pilots take one of the business class seats?

Cheers
 
Fabo
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:02 am

Most planes sized maybe A330 up have proper rest areas, at least as an option. Of course any airline is not required to have such option, but if you need a rest area, it makes sense to put it somewhere else than seats you could sell.
The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
 
flyingturtle
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:24 am

Quoting Fabo (Reply 35):
Most planes sized maybe A330 up have proper rest areas, at least as an option. Of course any airline is not required to have such option, but if you need a rest area, it makes sense to put it somewhere else than seats you could sell.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/batcave777/Crewrestmodule.jpg - crew rest box in the plane's belly.  

Seats are not really a consideration IMHO because you couldn't do ULH flights without a proper crew rest area. The crown area of an aircraft is seldum used for anything (at least on the widebodies), and so many A/C have the crew rest there:

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices...s/commercial/crewrest_location.jpg


David
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Fabo
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RE: Ultra Long Haul Crew Shifts

Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:11 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 36):
you couldn't do ULH flights without a proper crew rest area

I suppose you could block a premium cabin to be designated crew rest area, if you absolutely needed to operate an ULH flight with aircraft not equipped with proper crew rest. But this is just unimportant academics anyway.
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