combatshadow
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Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:55 am

Just taking a look at the top 5 for the last 24 hours, and this beautiful pic caught my eye. But then I noticed something appears to be missing. I keep looking away and back at the picture wondering if it's an illusion. Can anyone shed any light on this?


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airportugal310
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:58 am

Definitely not an illusion.

Maybe removed for Mx. Or damaged on a previous flight. As others will elaborate, there was probably a fuel burn penalty. Maybe a payload penalty too?
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calvo747
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:12 am

There was a discussion in a thread last week, I'm trying to find it. A QF 744 was flying minus a winglet apart from a fuel burn penalty, their was no other effect
 
cbphoto
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:23 am

Quoting calvo747 (Reply 2):
. A QF 744 was flying minus a winglet apart from a fuel burn penalty, their was no other effect

Would there be a small performance penalty as well with only one winglet?
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tdscanuck
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:01 am

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 3):
Would there be a small performance penalty as well with only one winglet?

Reduce takeoff/landing weight by 20,800 lbs, enroute climb weight by 10,000 lbs.

Tom.
 
fsnuffer
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:11 pm

As a non-aviator I am curious, anyone care to elaborate what other external parts of the 747 are optional tha might be interesting or not widely know?
 
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Polot
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:18 pm

Just to note, the A330 (and presumably the A340 as well) can also fly missing the winglet, with penalties of course:


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flyingturtle
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:34 pm

Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 5):
As a non-aviator I am curious, anyone care to elaborate what other external parts of the 747 are optional tha might be interesting or not widely know?

- flap track canoes are frequently popping up in the threads here. The flap track canoe is just the fairing of the flap movement mechanism and not a load-bearing part. There is AFAIK a 1% fuel burn penalty per flap track canoe missing.
- doors can be sealed shut, and emergency shutes can be removed for maintenance, but then there is a passenger capacity penalty. (I've been on such a RJ85 or RJ100 flight with LX.)

There certainly are many more items...

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harleydriver
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:53 pm

Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 5):
As a non-aviator I am curious, anyone care to elaborate what other external parts of the 747 are optional tha might be interesting or not widely know?

There are a lot of items. A aircraft has an MEL (Minimum Equipment List) that lists items that are allowed to be inoperative and the restrictions or additional procedures that have to be followed and there is a CDL (Configuration Deviation List) that allows certain items to be missing and the penalties associated like planning an additional fuel burn or payload reductions.
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cambridgeflyer1
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:39 pm

Not forgetting a demonstrator A380 flew into HKG from BKK in 2007 with no wing fences at all. Does anyone know if the A380 would be capable of flying with one wing fence only?
 
71Zulu
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
Reduce takeoff/landing weight by 20,800 lbs, enroute climb weight by 10,000 lbs.

What would the numbers be for both missing?
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Francoflier
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:54 pm

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 10):

Take off with more than one winglet missing is not allowed.

The fuel penalty for one missing is approximately 2.5% on the burn figure.

[Edited 2013-01-13 07:56:38]
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AirframeAS
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 11):
Take off with more than one winglet missing is not allowed

Is this a gov't rule or an OEM rule? Source?
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Semaex
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
Reduce takeoff/landing weight by 20,800 lbs, enroute climb weight by 10,000 lbs.

Enroute and Climb penalties I can understand, but how come the MTO/LAM change so drastically? Can you explain?


Remember the LH A330 that clipped another aircraft on a US airport a couple of months ago? Mx took the winglet off and taped the wing, the aircraft flew back to Germany with a major delay obviously, but it flew.
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migair54
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:11 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 13):
Enroute and Climb penalties I can understand, but how come the MTO/LAM change so drastically? Can you explain?

Increase of drag created in the wintip, that´s exactly what winglets and sharklet reduce.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 13):
Remember the LH A330 that clipped another aircraft on a US airport a couple of months ago? Mx took the winglet off and taped the wing, the aircraft flew back to Germany with a major delay obviously, but it flew.

not long ago also an A330 in Zanzibar has the same issue, then wintip removed, put in the cargo hold and back to Italy.
 
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:45 pm

Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 5):
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Engine? Not optional when you buy it but maybe lose one when flying?
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migair54
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:00 pm

Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 5):
As a non-aviator I am curious, anyone care to elaborate what other external parts of the 747 are optional tha might be interesting or not widely know?

they are not optional but some of them can be missing or U/S, that can be found in the CDL or the plane (configuration deviation list) with restrictions and penalties and deadlines to operate under that conditions.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
Is this a gov't rule or an OEM rule? Source?

Manufacturers issue the documentation and aviation authorities aprove, amend, recommend changes or just deny, then airlines also issue the same or more restrictive amendments, but states don´t work in this small issues one by one.

Quoting calvo747 (Reply 2):
There was a discussion in a thread last week, I'm trying to find it. A QF 744 was flying minus a winglet apart from a fuel burn penalty, their was no other effect

QF is also one of the very few airlines that have flown the B747 with a fifth engine on the wings, that´s also a very special case and not everybody is able to do.
 
packsonflight
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:52 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
Is this a gov't rule or an OEM rule? Source?

This according to dispatch deviation guide, published by the manufacturer and approved by FAA/JAA
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 11):
Take off with more than one winglet missing is not allowed.

Since when?

747-400 Without Winglets! How Come? (by RootsAir Mar 13 2006 in Civil Aviation)
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cbphoto
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:08 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
Since when?

I think that's different! ANA and JAL domestic 747s never had the winglets installed, so obviously it would be ok to operate without them. I think what they were trying to say, is if the aircraft originally had winglets, and both had to be removed, then revenue service would not be allowed on that aircraft. I am guessing they could obviously ferry the aircraft empty to a maintenance base to have them repaired!



Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
Reduce takeoff/landing weight by 20,800 lbs, enroute climb weight by 10,000 lbs.

Thanks for the info!
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Francoflier
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
Since when?

Since the MEL/DDG for the type came out.

The -400D is a variant that has been specifically certified to operate without winglets, amongst others.

The 'regular' -400 was certified differently and its MEL clearly states that at least one winglet is required for dispatch. I didn't make it up.
The type is clearly able to fly without both, but if it came to that, the operator would need to seek a special temporary permit from Boeing and their domestic Civil Aviation Authority to deviate from the DDG.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:28 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 20):
The 'regular' -400 was certified differently and its MEL clearly states that at least one winglet is required for dispatch.

Ah, okay, that makes sense. The winglets seemed to be interchangeable on the -400D, flying with them or without them, but if it's a different certification, then it's a different certification.
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jetmech
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:21 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
Quoting francoflier (Reply 11):
Quoting Semaex (Reply 13):

I think the weight penalties may be performance based only; thus, they become important for situations such as hot and high operations, short runways or elevated terrain surrounding the airfield.



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rsmith6621a
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:54 am

Evergreen N492EV winglet was damaged while under Taxi in OTP (Romania) on 12/28/12 The wing marshaller was not paying attention while in a turn and the winglet hit a light pole.

The flight took a 10 hour delay and was on its way to DOV.

Yes all of you mechanics there is a penalty CDL for it missing.

I doubt it will be fixed with the financial situation EIA is in.

[Edited 2013-01-13 17:55:52]
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airportugal310
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:06 am

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 23):

Well, what's costs more? Fixing a winglet or constantly taking a fuel burn penalty?

I should think the answer there is clear.
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Utah744
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:29 am

UPS can only fly with the right winglet or fence missing because they only make right turns.
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rsmith6621a
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:31 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 24):

What if you lines of credit are in the crapper????? and you have abused your relationships with the vendors.
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rahulrahul
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:31 am

One time, I was on a LH flight to IAD on a 744, and a winglet was missing. It was intriguing me, and now I know the answer  .
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tdscanuck
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:17 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 20):
The 'regular' -400 was certified differently and its MEL clearly states that at least one winglet is required for dispatch.

It can't be in the MEL, it would have to be in the CDL.

Tom.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:35 am

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 26):

I can't speak to the to the financial situation per se, but if someone is still allowing the company to buy jet fuel then it can't be all that bad.

But I see what your saying. A wing and a prayer can only get you so far...
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jeffry747
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:36 am

Quoting UTAH744 (Reply 25):

        

And they do have a knack for flying with missing flap canoes, too.
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zoneload
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:44 am

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 23):

The plane came back to the states turned and went out on another flight. Returned to the states then went to JFK to have the wing let replaced. So it flew one more round trip to the Middle East then it was fixed.
 
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:49 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 20):

The 747-400LCF have the winglets removed also.
 
rwessel
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:48 am

Quoting zoneload (Reply 32):
The 747-400LCF have the winglets removed also.

Does my memory fail me, or weren't those removed to resolve a flutter problem?
 
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:48 am

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 23):
I doubt it will be fixed with the financial situation EIA is in.

That's what insurance is for.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:51 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 28):
It can't be in the MEL, it would have to be in the CDL.

Oops, yes. It is indeed...


As for the cost factor above, considering a very average 10Tons/h burn and a 2.5% penalty, then it's about 250 kgs of fuel for every flight hour without it. A typical 12 hrs long haul would roughly cost an extra $5000 in fuel.

I don't know how much a winglet is and how many man hours are required to install one, I'm guessing more than $5000.
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Zkpilot
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:02 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 35):
I don't know how much a winglet is and how many man hours are required to install one, I'm guessing more than $5000.

several hundred thousand I'd say.
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Semaex
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:48 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 14):
Quoting Semaex (Reply 13):
Enroute and Climb penalties I can understand, but how come the MTO/LAM change so drastically? Can you explain?

Increase of drag created in the wintip, that´s exactly what winglets and sharklet reduce.

Hold on a moment. There's a difference between "drag" and "drag".
The Induced Drag and the Parasite Drag are the two main values we're looking at when trying to decide whether to put winglets on an aircraft or not. If it were that easy to say that winglets reduce the drag, then why not put as much of it on every aircraft? Yet we don't.

Looking back at my ATPL stuff I now understand though why the MTO/LAM increase so much. For those who are interested:
Both Parasite and Induced Drag are functions of the speed of the aircraft. They are exponential respective inversely exponential to the TAS of the aircraft. So at low speeds (in Takeoff or Landing configuration) the Dp has a very low value while the Di is very high, even more so with flaps. While Winglets increase the value of the Parasite Drag by adding Form and Interference Drag to the aircraft, they also reduce the value of the Induced Drag, especially at high angles of attack. So the negative impact of the Dp is taken into consideration for the greater good, but at low airspeeds this value is so low (and the Di so high), that having one winglet missing to keep the Induced Drag low significantly increases the overall Drag of the aircraft, thus more Thrust (or less Mass) must be considered.
That also explains why aircraft which are large and cruise at relatively high Mach numbers (eg 777) are not in desperate need of winglets. The negative impact of the (large) Paraside Drag would destroy the (small) savings in Induced Drag.

Quoting jetmech (Reply 22):

Thanks for this great piece of information!
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135mech
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:27 pm

Quoting rwessel (Reply 33):
Quoting zoneload (Reply 32):
The 747-400LCF have the winglets removed also.

Does my memory fail me, or weren't those removed to resolve a flutter problem?

As I recall from previous threads, they removed the winglets on purpose because of the drag they create for the heavy lifting of the longhaul flights was no longer needed on these models since they do not carry all of the weight of the passengers/bags etc, and now it's the "bulk" of the 787 size compared to the weight of passengers.

As I said, I remember reading that on here before, so please don't crucify me! LOL

Regards,
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vikkyvik
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:44 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 37):
That also explains why aircraft which are large and cruise at relatively high Mach numbers (eg 777) are not in desperate need of winglets.

Not exactly. Winglets are most effective over cruise, since you have a lot of time over which drag savings can be gleaned.

If you look at widebody, medium/long-haul aircraft:

Airbus:
A300 - wing fences
A310 - wing fences
A330 - winglets
A340 - winglets
A380 - wing fences

Boeing:
747-400 - winglets
767 - retrofitted winglets, or raked wingtips on -400
777 - no winglets, or raked wingtips on -200LR, -300ER, and -F
787 - raked wingtips

So the majority of widebody, medium/long-haul aircraft from the two major manufacturers have some sort of vertical wing device from the factory or available for retrofit, whether technically winglets or wing fences.

The 767-400, the newer 777s and the 787 have raked wingtips, which is something better designed in from the start. If you can afford the extra span and structural weight, they are better than the equivalent winglet.
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Semaex
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:33 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 39):

I think you're making a good point here. The large aircraft have all rather small winglets/wingtips, compared to their overall size. Compare that with a 737NG or ERJ for example.
I think the reason is that widebodies spend more time in cruise than narrows, so the effect of the different kinds of Drags must be considered.
Like I said, the Induced Drag becomes very small with faster speeds, therefore less need in cruise.
If, however, the cruise is done at fairly low speeds, say M.72, resulting in high AOAs, then you desperately need winglets again to compensate for the rising Induced Drag.
That's the reason why operators retrofit their 767s. They cannot afford to fly faster because the fuel burn would be horrendous, but if they fly slow the Induced Drag must be compensated somehow - solution winglets.

The impact of actual winglets on an A380 for example would be quite negative. They would have to be so huge to make a difference, which adds tons of weight, that the aircraft is better without it. On top, the Parasite Drag (Form Drag) the winglets create (on every aircraft) become more of an issue with high cruise speeds, exponentially to the TAS.

The best solution for all aicraft would be retractable winglets. Maybe in a couple of decades we're there.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:34 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 40):
The impact of actual winglets on an A380 for example would be quite negative. They would have to be so huge to make a difference, which adds tons of weight, that the aircraft is better without it.

The A380 would do fine with winglets or raked wingtips. The reason for the fences is that it is wingspan limited to 80 meters. Fences are the most efficient way to get maximum wingspan and also wingtip devices.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:48 pm

Just a Thought....
On the B747......If one wingtip is damaged,It can be deffered with a load penalty.What If the other side Wingtip is also removed until both Wingtips could be replaced back, would the load penalty differ positively.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:50 am

Quoting Semaex (Reply 40):
I think you're making a good point here. The large aircraft have all rather small winglets/wingtips, compared to their overall size. Compare that with a 737NG or ERJ for example.

That wasn't my point.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 40):
If, however, the cruise is done at fairly low speeds, say M.72, resulting in high AOAs, then you desperately need winglets again to compensate for the rising Induced Drag.

If your airplane is designed to cruise at M.72, then there's no need for a high AoA. You optimize your airplane for its design cruise speed (of course with other inputs and compromises as well).
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bluewhale18210
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:39 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 42):

Per the document provided above, only one may be missing. So take 5000kg roughly off the performance and its a go. If both are missing then its a no dispatch. If you already have one missing and the other one is damaged the aircraft is grounded.

Also normally aircraft don't fly with a damaged structural component. If that piece is deferrable it is deferred after it is removed. So you can't fly with half a winglet and call it good.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:33 pm

Quoting bluewhale18210 (Reply 44):
If both are missing then its a no dispatch.

What is the reasoning for this.....why not permit despatch & add a payload penalty.
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rwessel
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:43 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 45):
What is the reasoning for this.....why not permit despatch & add a payload penalty.

I suspect it's just because they've never gone through the work needed to certify that configuration. Losing one winglet has a reasonable probability - things run into aircraft wingtips on a fairly regular basis, after all. But losing both ought to be much rarer, and so is likely not worth the effort on the part of the manufacturer.
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:56 am

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 23):
Evergreen N492EV winglet was damaged while under Taxi in OTP (Romania) on 12/28/12 The wing marshaller was not paying attention while in a turn and the winglet hit a light pole.

Why would that be the fault of the ground if the plane was taxing, wouldn't the flight crew be responsible for not hitting a light post?

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 26):
What if you lines of credit are in the crapper????? and you have abused your relationships with the vendors.

We cant sell to them anymore as of June. Cash in hand only

Quoting francoflier (Reply 35):
I don't know how much a winglet is and how many man hours are required to install one, I'm guessing more than $5000

UA prices a 744 winglet at $36,000 and approx 36 hours to replace.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:18 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 47):
UA prices a 744 winglet at $36,000 and approx 36 hours to replace.

Why 36hrs.....seems a bit excess....
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Starlionblue
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RE: Where Is This 744's Left Winglet?

Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:38 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 48):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 47):
UA prices a 744 winglet at $36,000 and approx 36 hours to replace.

Why 36hrs.....seems a bit excess....

18 hours to replace. 18 hours to do the paperwork. 
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