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DLX737200
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Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:48 pm

So I know this has been discussed before but I've never gotten a definitive answer. What is Delta's logic to outsourcing customer service positions? I know NWA use to use a formula where if the station saw X amount of mainline flights a week they had to be mainline positions. And I've heard of UA having a similar formula in the past. Does Delta have such a formula or rule?

I can't understand why some cities are mainline when they probably don't need to be and others aren't mainline when they should be.

For example, MIA:


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In my eyes, the ramp should be mainline. Look at how many mainline flights they have there.

Thoughts?
 
luv2fly
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:11 pm

Outsourcing = lower costs for DL.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
NWAESC
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:36 pm

If there's a formula, I'd sure like to hear it.

Agree about MIA.

And RDU...and CLT... and...
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mbmbos
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:56 pm

Accounting and taxes as well. Many times outsourcing reduces assets and the whole depreciation mess associated with them and allows companies to write off expenses in ways that are more amenable to the balance sheet.
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TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:37 pm

Quoting DLX737200 (Thread starter):
I can't understand why some cities are mainline when they probably don't need to be and others aren't mainline when they should be.

For example, MIA:

Are suggesting MIA shouldn't be mainline? In the picture, I only see on CRJ. The other T-tails are MD-88s...
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
Tod
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:32 pm

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 1):
Outsourcing = lower costs for DL.

That's why I will be spending a couple of months in SIN instead of MSP or ATL supporting an A330 cabin mod.
 
dlramp4life
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:42 pm

But DL is not the biggest outsourcer. UA outsources alot. AA is now outsourcing. US, F9, G4, NK, B6, also outsource.

As much as I am anti outsourcing, there is a reason for it.

DL is smart about it, they own an outsourcing company (DGS), so DGS can provide the labor cheaper then DL mainline can and that money comes back to DL.

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 2):
Agree about MIA.

With FLL down the road? Why should DL have mainline in MIA and FLL even though FLL sees more traffic...

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 2):
And RDU...and CLT... and...

SAN

There is a formula to prevent outsourcing within DL at non hub cities: Ready Reserves

Out Stations:
50% Full time/ Part Time Benefited Employees
50% Ready Reserves

Focus Cities:
60% Full time/ Part Time Benefited Employees
40% Ready Reserves

Hub Cities:
70% Full Time/ Part Time Benefited Employees
30% Ready Reserves
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jetmatt777
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:52 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 4):
Are suggesting MIA shouldn't be mainline? In the picture, I only see on CRJ. The other T-tails are MD-88s...

He's referring to staffing. Why aren't mainline employees doing the work since it carries a lot of mainline traffic?
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:11 am

DL outsourced the ramp at BDL to DGS as well. They have a high voulme of mainline flights. The rumor is there was a theft scandal that lead to that action.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:53 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 7):

He's referring to staffing. Why aren't mainline employees doing the work since it carries a lot of mainline traffic?

My mistake; I read the post too quickly. That is a good question.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:47 am

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 6):
As much as I am anti outsourcing, there is a reason for it.

Opposing outsourcing misses the point, I think. There's a right way and a wrong way to do it. Most outsourced US stations (especially Piedmont stations) have employees who are pleasant and competent and often do a better job than mainline agents.

When NW outsourced those stations with fewer than 50 mainline flights per week (IIRC in early 2006) it was awful. The outsourced employees were pretty much uniformly surly and were generally incompetent.

I don't see any reason why mainline ground staff should handle airplanes whose pilots, f/as, mechanics, dispatchers, etc. are all outsourced. But outsourcing should not be an excuse for poor performance.
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deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:35 am

Quoting DLX737200 (Thread starter):

"it saves money, yada yada yada"

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 2):

You will never see one because there is no such thing. (and even if there was one, they could just change it tomorrow. tough times, bad economy, high fuel, Richard needs a new car.....doesn't really matter why)

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 6):
But DL is not the biggest outsourcer.

......on the Ramp? I would have to say that, at least between AA/DL and UA.....thats BS.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 6):
With FLL down the road? Why should DL have mainline in MIA and FLL even though FLL sees more traffic...

uhh....really? What does FLL/PBI/RSW or any other airport have to do with mainline staffing at MIA? Its about mainline flights a day. MIA has ~25 flights a day, all of which are mainline. I don't have the AA/UA contracts on hand, but I am fairly sure that would case the station to be mainline for both. For comparison, SAN has ~20 mainline flights and 6 CR7s to LAX. (and RDU is, IIRC the larger station that isn't mainline, and DL/DCI are pretty big at RDU now. IIRC flights to all the hubs minus SLC. LAX/MCO/TPA/BOS flights also.)

I can promise you, both union contracts at UA and AA don't say anything about "company may outsource if airport is close to another with more traffic" Hey NWAESC did your IAM contract say anything like this? my guess is no.
Now, my question for your DLramp, should Delta get to outsource LGA/EWR ramp and keep only JFK mainline because it has the most seats? I mean, LGA/EWR are right next door......

Delta "should" be at about the same number of stations as AA/UA. (and I'd say even more, I mean how much money does RR save Delta that UA/AA don't get?...)
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dlramp4life
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:15 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11):
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 6):
But DL is not the biggest outsourcer.

......on the Ramp? I would have to say that, at least between AA/DL and UA.....thats BS.

AA just shut the ramp down in alot of cities... How about UA, there are still alot of PMCO now UA flights being worked by third party companies side by side by PMUA employees. Please explain the "BS" to me.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11):
Now, my question for your DLramp, should Delta get to outsource LGA/EWR ramp and keep only JFK mainline because it has the most seats? I mean, LGA/EWR are right next door......

That is different. LGA is a hub like JFK. DL is making it work, plus I think the international flights out of EWR play a vital role.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11):
Delta "should" be at about the same number of stations as AA/UA. (and I'd say even more, I mean how much money does RR save Delta that UA/AA don't get?...)

So every station should have DL employees? That would bankrupt the company yet again. There are some stations where having mainline employees does not make sense. Here is a question for you DL1011 if a station sees CR2s,CR7s,and CR9s (upgrade) and a seasonal A319 why should mainline DL work here?... Better yet if a station sees three mainline flights a day (DC9, MD88/90, 738, 757, A319/20) why should mainline work these flights? The station would have any money and labor costs would go up and up.
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FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:01 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 11):
on the Ramp? I would have to say that, at least between AA/DL and UA.....thats BS.

I believe that the airlines are all about equal when It comes to ramp outsourcing, with the exception of Southwest. UA outsources express ramp and customer service work at a hub!!! That's some major outsoucing in my opinon.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:47 am

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 12):
So every station should have DL employees? That would bankrupt the company yet again. There are some stations where having mainline employees does not make sense. Here is a question for you DL1011 if a station sees CR2s,CR7s,and CR9s (upgrade) and a seasonal A319 why should mainline DL work here?... Better yet if a station sees three mainline flights a day (DC9, MD88/90, 738, 757, A319/20) why should mainline work these flights? The station would have any money and labor costs would go up and up.

yeah good job at putting words in my mouth. Man you pro company guys are all the same.
Stations like CLT, MIA, SAN, RDU that have 20+ mainline flights (and most/all of the RJ traffic is big RJs) should be mainline.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 12):

AA just shut the ramp down in alot of cities... How about UA, there are still alot of PMCO now UA flights being worked by third party companies side by side by PMUA employees. Please explain the "BS" to me.

......What do you want explained? UA/CO don't have a single group yet, as soon as they do, I'm sure 99% of the stations you speak about will have mainline.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 13):
UA outsources express ramp and customer service work at a hub!!!

So does Delta. Only hubs that I know are *full* mainline is ATL and CVG. (note I don't think Delta has any DCI above wing at hubs.)
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dlramp4life
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:41 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 14):
Man you pro company guys are all the same.

Please enlighten me....

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 14):
Stations like CLT, MIA, SAN, RDU that have 20+ mainline flights (and most/all of the RJ traffic is big RJs) should be mainline.

I am aware that these stations get mainline flights. Why did DL outsource them? Who knows because I sure don't and you sure don't know as well...I am trying to provide my insight as both an employee and a former third party airport services company employee.

WN is having problems with their labor because they have the same view as you and now they are running into problems with all the former AirTran cities that were outsourced.
SEA Ramp, wettest place on earth
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:26 pm

Outsourcing saves on labor costs, but generally service companies have a high rate of turnover, lower wages and the quality of work suffers as well. This comes from my personal experience with how service companies work. Granted having company employees is no guarantee of high quality work but the level of control is much higher.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:23 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 15):
I am aware that these stations get mainline flights. Why did DL outsource them?

In the 90s and much of the aughts, DL saw no value in company ground handling. The amount of outsourcing compared to its peers should make that crystal clear. DL is the only carrier who had multiple daily widebody flights to outsourced domestic stations in that time period (ORD is a good example).
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dlramp4life
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:08 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):

Thank you for the insight Cubsrule. I did not know that. I know for fact my station was outsourced because of the bankruptcy... But alot of those outsourced cities had ramp comeback to mainline because of the NW merger though..
SEA Ramp, wettest place on earth
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Outsourcing: What Is The Logic?

Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:47 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 18):
But alot of those outsourced cities had ramp comeback to mainline because of the NW merger though..

That's correct. Pre-b/k, NW had very few outsourced stations. They outsourced stations with fewer than 50 weekly mainline flights (IIRC) during b/k. Many of the stations that were outsourced in that period were awful. Most of the stations with, say, 50-125 weekly NW flights (which were mainline) were outsourced on the DL side, and when they merged all stations that had either carrier handled by mainline become DL mainline. Most stations with fewer than 50 weekly NW flights had been outsourced by DL long ago and remained outsourced.
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