Pihero
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A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:44 pm

FRom the AAIB + BEA :
Only the title as investigation is at the beginning :
": Birdstrike on departure. Engine was shut down and MAYDAY declared. Returned and landed
uneventfully. Damage to both engines, leading edges and radome.
"
Tht's serious and the multiplication of these occurrences is worrying. Beyond the dry officialese, the damage seems to have been very important.
Couldn't find anything in the press so I rely on the Tech-Ops supêrsleuths to provide us with more infos.
( It's on this forum as I want to avoid the quagmire Ciuv-Av has become).

Apparently, G-VKSS flew back three days later.

[Edited 2013-01-31 10:52:04]
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zeke
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:18 am

Sounds like multiple birds involved.
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:17 am

The sentence that states damage to both engines is a concern....
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ecbomberman
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:03 am

Quoting Pihero (Thread starter):
Quoting Pihero (Thread starter):
FRom the AAIB BEA :

Tried looking at the AAIB website but I can't seem to find the relevant report or bulletin...

BUT,

http://www.faa.gov/data_research/acc...reliminary_data/media/C_0122_N.txt

AND Layman talking:

http://asn.aerosoft.com/?p=18721

http://avherald.com/h?article=45c7d5a1&opt=0

Seems people on those site don't realise that A333 don't have fuel dump features. And I'm pretty sure that there is no such thing as overweight landing on A333, just heavy landing which only require extra inspection in normal circumstances. Or am I wrong? Would be grateful if someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Interesting that an A333 would be overweight for a Transatlantic trip. Or is it because it is a high density config aircraft?

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 2):
The sentence that states damage to both engines is a concern....

Only one of 2 engines was severely damaged to warrant a 1 engine shut down. Don't think that it would be prudent to shut down 2 engines no matter how bad it is damaged as long as it still produces thrust.

Just for entertainment sake. B757 2 engine damaged 1 engine shut down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KhZwsYtNDE

[Edited 2013-02-01 03:08:49]
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:43 am

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 3):
Seems people on those site don't realise that A333 don't have fuel dump features.

IT is a customer option on the 330. Don't know if this aircraft has the option.

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 3):
Only one of 2 engines was severely damaged to warrant a 1 engine shut down. Don't think that it would be prudent to shut down 2 engines no matter how bad it is damaged as long as it still produces thrust.

In some extreme cases, like where you have one engine shut down and the other one is uncontrollable (yes it has happened, and on a 330!), maybe shutting the live one down on short final is an option to consider.
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Pihero
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:49 am

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 3):
Interesting that an A333 would be overweight for a Transatlantic trip. Or is it because it is a high density config aircraft?

The landing weight is around 182,000 kg
With 311 pax, @ 100 kg average per pax and bag, the ZFW should have been around 155,000 kg... so yes, they were above max landing weight (MLW).
According to some posters on AvHerald, the birds imlplicated were "turkey vultures", averaging 2 kg... that could make a lot of damage... especially on a multiple strike.
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ecbomberman
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:48 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
In some extreme cases, like where you have one engine shut down and the other one is uncontrollable (yes it has happened, and on a 330!), maybe shutting the live one down on short final is an option to consider.

Interesting I was thinking of whether to write that down in my previous post (CX A333 incident). Local Cantonese media (irresponsible radio pundits) were saying that the pilots were risking the lives of all the pax on board eventhough they had warnings/alerts half way during their cruise. But that is the other extreme of a 2 engine failure. I shall not digress.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 5):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 5):
With 311 pax, @ 100 kg average per pax and bag, the ZFW should have been around 155,000 kg... so yes, they were above max landing weight (MLW).

So if there was no fuel dump facility (presumably even if they have that option, the crew would have elected to land ASAP), do they just need to perform a simple 'Heavy landing' check (assuming the landing went well)?

Some pics of the damage done to the aircraft would be nice.
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:57 pm

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 6):
So if there was no fuel dump facility (presumably even if they have that option, the crew would have elected to land ASAP), do they just need to perform a simple 'Heavy landing' check (assuming the landing went well)?

I believe so yes. If the plane passes the check, the pilots have landed her gently enough that it is like a normal landing.

AFAIK the big problems with an overweight landing are tire speed, brakes stress and the like, not so much stress to the structure. But I could be wrong.

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 6):
Local Cantonese media (irresponsible radio pundits) were saying that the pilots were risking the lives of all the pax on board eventhough they had warnings/alerts half way during their cruise. But that is the other extreme of a 2 engine failure. I shall not digress.

Certainly the crew were professional. As you say the mainstream media has no clue about technical matters and they like to pour petrol on the flames by sensationalizing. This is why I don't watch or listen to the news anymore. I get my news on the web and read heavily between the lines.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 5):
According to some posters on AvHerald, the birds imlplicated were "turkey vultures", averaging 2 kg... that could make a lot of damage... especially on a multiple strike.

An instructor I know hit one in a Cessna 172. Made a big dent in the leading edge of the wing, which lost a significant portion of its lifting ability. And down they spiraled (or spun, not sure). He recovered the plane a worryingly low altitude above a field and made an emergency landing, then they hit some bumps and the plane flipped over onto her back.

Those birds are scary big and tend to hang in flocks. A couple of approach ends I am familiar with seemed to be magnets for the things. Town planners putting landfills in "strategic" locations are not the most popular people with local pilots...

But I digress...

[Edited 2013-02-01 04:59:40]

[Edited 2013-02-01 05:00:03]
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:25 pm

Quoting Pihero (Thread starter):
Quoting Pihero (Thread starter):
FRom the AAIB + BEA

Just a matter of curiosity but why would BEA be involved in this particular investigation. As far as we can ascertain so far it's a simple birdstrike and has nothing to do with the design of the aircraft itself. Would the state that manufacture the aircraft be investigating such 'minute' events or is it just a bulletin saying that there was an incident with an Airbus?

Hope that someone can enlighten me.

[Edited 2013-02-01 05:29:38]
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:44 pm

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 3):
Just for entertainment sake. B757 2 engine damaged 1 engine shut down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KhZw...YtNDE

I'm pretty sure only 1 engine was damaged (and shut-down) in that incident.
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 8):

It is a thing of custom and "good manners" to invite the agency of aircraft manufacturing country.
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:59 pm

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 8):
Quoting Fabo (Reply 10):

Just googled and found some accident investigation regulations (here from Malta):

7. (1) Where an investigation into an accident or a serious incident is being carried out by an investigator-in-charge under these regulations, any other State being -
(a) the State of registry;
(b) the State of design;
(c) the State of manufacture;
(d) the State of the operator; or
(e) a State which, on request, provides information, facilities or experts in an investigation,

shall be entitled to appoint an accredited representative to participate in all aspects of the investigation.

(2) The accredited representative shall be permitted to -
(a) visit the scene of the accident;
(b) examine the wreckage;
(c) question witnesses;
(d) receive copies of all pertinent documents (saving all such just exceptions as may be determined by the investigator);
(e) have full access to all relevant evidence as soon as possible;
(f) make submissions;
(g) participate in readouts of recorded media; and
(h) participate in any off-scene investigative activities.


All countries belonging to the ICAO have the same (or similar) regulations. I'm just reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afriqiyah_Airways_Flight_771 about the 8U A330 crash in TIP, and the Libyan investigators claimed a heart attack. I wonder how much access the Dutch investigators had.


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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:45 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7):
But I digress...

No, you don't . That's interesting to me as I've never seen them in flocks.Your remark about landfills seems to be spot on.
It would have requires a hit or two one or two meters on either side of the wing impacts to damage the second engine and the situation would have been more serious.
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:19 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 12):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7):
But I digress...

No, you don't . That's interesting to me as I've never seen them in flocks.Your remark about landfills seems to be spot on.
It would have requires a hit or two one or two meters on either side of the wing impacts to damage the second engine and the situation would have been more serious.

To be exact, they are not a "flocking" bird. However if there is something "interesting" on the ground you can see 10-20 in a relatively small area.

For example, the approach paths to 6 at ISM and (if memory serves) 5 at KGIF seemed to always have a bunch hanging out. 6 at ISM has some nice swampy patches that probably had prey, and 5 at KGIF has a landfill according to an examiner. It was often a game of "dodge the bird" if you had a straight in final.

[Edited 2013-02-01 16:20:30]
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:13 am

*If* they had had the fuel dump option, what should they have done?

Dump then land or land immediately given the second engine hit?


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Pihero
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:45 am

You'd have quite a few options, depending on your situation, the state of the aircraft ( and of the remaining engine ), the geometry of the runway (s)... etc...
With an engine intact, dumping would be the best solution.
Here, with doubts over the engine condition, ,a mayday, followed by an immediate return-and-land was the wisest.

Anyone with pics or new developments ?
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:44 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
To be exact, they are not a "flocking" bird. However if there is something "interesting" on the ground you can see 10-20 in a relatively small area.

The bottom line is that you rarely see one. They also use the thermals generated from the concrete/asphalt, which is a reason why they circle over runways even if there is no food around.

I got close to some at KPIE this week. There were probably 10-20 at the departure end of 18L at various 'dangerous' altitudes.


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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:14 am

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 3):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 2):
The sentence that states damage to both engines is a concern....

Only one of 2 engines was severely damaged to warrant a 1 engine shut down. Don't think that it would be prudent to shut down 2 engines no matter how bad it is damaged as long as it still produces thrust.

Just for entertainment sake. B757 2 engine damaged 1 engine shut down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KhZw...YtNDE

I was stating that "damage" to both engines is a concern.....no way did I state that both engines were shutdown.
Also The B757 link provided was a single engine bird strike......
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:34 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
I was stating that "damage" to both engines is a concern.....no way did I state that both engines were shutdown.
Also The B757 link provided was a single engine bird strike......

Yes, I've noticed that... My bad... Googled "Birdstrike Manchester 757" and a BBC news came up stating a double bird strike had occurred. So I wrongly linked that video to that incident.
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:10 am

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 18):

Yes, I've noticed that... My bad... Googled "Birdstrike Manchester 757" and a BBC news came up stating a double bird strike had occurred. So I wrongly linked that video to that incident.

No Issues.....What great about this video is that it clearly demonstrates how a small bird can create such an expensive damage....
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:04 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 16):
The bottom line is that you rarely see one. They also use the thermals generated from the concrete/asphalt, which is a reason why they circle over runways even if there is no food around.

There are quite a lot of turkey vultures around MCO, and central FL in general. For those not familiar, MCO is the 3rd largest airfield in the US based on acreage and much of it is forested/wetlands with heavy animal activity.

Reference the incident at hand, both engines did sustain quite a bit of damage. Although #2 was not shut down, it did have heavy vibration. A few more well-placed birds and this incident would have been much more publicized for all the wrong reasons.

Quoting faro (Reply 14):
*If* they had had the fuel dump option, what should they have done?

Dump then land or land immediately given the second engine hit?

They did not have the dump option to my understanding, and I have to imagine with the crippled state of the #2 engine, an overweight landing is a far superior option with a 12,000' runway available than circling with one questionable motor to dump fuel.

Someone will have to clarify, but an EI pilot told us a couple of days later that the dump option on the 330 is not normally taken, and customers instead opt for heavier brakes/gear instead. Pihero, can you verify this?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 15):
Anyone with pics or new developments ?

PM me for pics.
 
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:37 pm

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 20):
. Although #2 was not shut down, it did have heavy vibration.

That's one of my questions. Thanks.

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 20):
Someone will have to clarify, but an EI pilot told us a couple of days later that the dump option on the 330 is not normally taken, and customers instead opt for heavier brakes/gear instead.

That's correct. The dumping system adds complexity / weight / maintenace to the aircraft. Overweight landings are aprt of the certification and it's a non event.
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bond007
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:27 pm

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 20):
Quoting bond007 (Reply 16):
The bottom line is that you rarely see one. They also use the thermals generated from the concrete/asphalt, which is a reason why they circle over runways even if there is no food around.

There are quite a lot of turkey vultures around MCO, and central FL in general. For those not familiar, MCO is the 3rd largest airfield in the US based on acreage and much of it is forested/wetlands with heavy animal activity.

To clarify ... when I said "you rarely see one", I should have said "you rarely see JUST one" ....



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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:32 am

Hard/Overweight landings - In these days of ACMS data can be extracted from the DFDR to identify the Vertical Acceleration (VRTA) & the Rad Alt Vertical Rate of Descent (RALR) during landing. Calculations are then carried out using the MAX VRTA, Min VRTA & RALR to detemine whether inspections are necessary.

If within limits no further action required.
 
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:17 am

An update for this incident:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...s%20A330-343,%20G-VKSS%2009-13.pdf

Investigation

Examination of the aircraft in Orlando revealed impact damage to the radome, the left engine nose cowl, three fan blades fitted to the left engine and two fan blades fitted to the right engine. No defects were identified with the engine oil system. Analysis of the bird remains recovered from the engines indicated that the birds were probably Ring-necked Ducks, of between 1.5 lb and 2 lb in weight, and that each engine had ingested one bird.

After confirming the serviceability of both engines, the damaged fan blades and the left engine nose cowl were replaced. The aircraft completed an uneventful ferry flight back to the UK where the left engine was removed for overhaul.
 
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:35 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
To be exact, they are not a "flocking" bird. However if there is something "interesting" on the ground you can see 10-20 in a relatively small area.

When the Turkey or Black Vultures are flying they are are known as a kettle, and are also called a committee, venue or volt. When they are on the ground eating, they are called a wake. See single and or groups of these birds around MCO a lot. Flying into MCO, almost always pass by a few of these birds on approach. And they do get up in altitude. And there is a lot of them in Central Florida.

Anyway, as stated above, these were more than likely ring necked ducks, a smaller bird than the vultures around MCO.

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 3):
Only one of 2 engines was severely damaged to warrant a 1 engine shut down.

The engine was showing zero oil pressure through the EEC oil pump failure logic, that is why the crew shut it down. Turns out it is a engine software problem that has a sensitivity to vibration that will end up showing 'zero' oil pressure to the crew. Rolls-Royce was working on a fix for this. Both engines were able to make power.
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:04 pm

Last thursday we hit a flock of around 200 starlings just after liftoff. Hit at least 30 of them (what ATC told us later), had a nasty compressor stall and returned back practically on single engine. It is quite difficult to see them when RVR is 300 m..





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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:13 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 21):

All of HA's A332 have fuel dump capability.

Quoting Dufo (Reply 26):

Messy messy!
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:59 am

Quoting Dufo (Reply 26):
Hit at least 30 of them (what ATC told us later), had a nasty compressor stall and returned back practically on single engine. It is quite difficult to see them when RVR is 300 m..

Which Airport was this.
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:55 pm

Ljubljana, Slovenia - LJLJ
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:44 pm

Even these minor events are of interest to the manufacturer.
All bird strikes have DNA evidence taken and a report on damage caused.
Events should be as predicted, if not designs need to change to take account of actual events.
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RE: A330 Birdstrike Orlando

Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:41 am

Quoting Dufo (Reply 29):
Ljubljana, Slovenia - LJLJ

Is it common occurances out here or was this one rare case.
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