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beau222
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First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:53 pm

First officer found sleeping at controls of a Transavia 737, while Pilot takes Rest Room Break. Is there a set time limit for the Pilot to return back to the Cockpit?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/31/travel...p-at-controls/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
 
CalebWilliams
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:57 pm

So pilots aren't supposed to be sleeping while they are they only pilot in the cockpit? Is this a recent rule?

  
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:33 am

Quoting beau222 (Thread starter):
First officer found sleeping at controls of a Transavia 737, while Pilot takes Rest Room Break. Is there a set time limit for the Pilot to return back to the Cockpit?

One of the many reasons we aren't left alone up front. I know of no domestic airline that doesn't have one of the FAs sit in the cockpit while a pilot is in the back.
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ROSWELL41
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:10 am

This isn't a problem on U.S. carriers as one pilot is never allowed alone in the flight deck. Only a problem in the U.S. if both pilots fall asleep...
 
KC135Hydraulics
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:15 am

So during a restroom break a flight attendant has to babysit the other pilot?
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Starlionblue
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:19 am

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 4):
So during a restroom break a flight attendant has to babysit the other pilot?

Well, I think this is primarily for security. The F/A can open the door for the other pilot when he/she comes back.
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HAWK21M
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:26 am

Looks like the F/O goofed up.....Fatigue probably........Where was the FA in the Flightdeck for the Pilot during the restroom usage.
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Dogbreath
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:28 am

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 4):
So during a restroom break a flight attendant has to babysit the other pilot?

I'm hoping you've made this statement with tongue firmly in cheek.

Surely the aim of any airlines SOP's, is for safety of flight. Having been in 3 airlines during my career (from Europe, SE Asia and Australia), it's been SOP in those 3 airlines, that there must be more than one crewmember in the flight deck at all times during flight.

It would seem that the FO in question here is an extremely deep sleeper, and it takes a lot to wake him up. The tone from the door mechanism on the B737 is extremely loud, and for the life of me I don't know how anyone could sleep through that. One must ask how safe was this situation? If there'd been a TCAS RA, or Fire warning, would he have slept through it and compromised the safety of flight?

If we want to call it babysitting the pilot, then go for it. Does it enhance safety? In my opinion, yes it does.
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bueb0g
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:14 pm

Quoting beau222 (Thread starter):
First Officer Sleeping While PIC.  

He wasn't PIC. The PIC (the Captain in this case) was still PIC, even if he wasn't in the front.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
Where was the FA in the Flightdeck for the Pilot during the restroom usage.

It's not SOP at all airlines.

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 4):

So during a restroom break a flight attendant has to babysit the other pilot?

At many airlines, yes, in case the remaining pilot becomes incapacitated.
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HAWK21M
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:50 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 8):
It's not SOP at all airlines.

Then its high time the Airline made it an SOP considering the consequences.
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Web500sjc
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:12 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 8):

Remember there are two definitions of PIC, the one who is legally responsible and the one who is the sole manipulator of the controls.

Using the second definition I wonder of the autopilot can get PIC time?
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:01 pm

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 10):
Remember there are two definitions of PIC, the one who is legally responsible and the one who is the sole manipulator of the controls.

PF vs. PNF?


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Web500sjc
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:47 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
PF vs. PNF?

Under the definitions for PIC he would have been the sole manipulator.

As PF, I would consider him the PIC should something have gone wrong while the captain was not in the cockpit (and until such time as the Captain was fully able to take control of the situation). situations where this occurred include the B6 flight last year and the AS flight last week, or when the Captain is on his rest break.
In simple terms, The legal PIC is unable to exercise the responsibilities of PIC.

Obviously it could be a carrear ending decision to fall asleep while being the PF. Maybe things should be changed so that this does not happen, but there is no excuse for falling asleep at the controls.
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bueb0g
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:54 pm

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 10):
Remember there are two definitions of PIC, the one who is legally responsible and the one who is the sole manipulator of the controls.

No, there's really only one definition

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 12):
Obviously it could be a carrear ending decision to fall asleep while being the PF.

Luckily for this FO, it wasn't - the airline has stated it's not taking any action against him.

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 12):
but there is no excuse for falling asleep at the controls.

Well you don't know the specific circumstances. Maybe there were some fatigue issues... But then again, if there were, he shouldn't have flown.

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 12):
or when the Captain is on his rest break.

The PIC is still PIC even while sleeping in the back of the plane. The PIC need not manipulate the controls for any period of the flight to be in command.
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GApilot106
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:50 pm

Previous post: "Looks like the F/O goofed up.....Fatigue probably........Where was the FA in the Flightdeck for the Pilot during the restroom usage."

....the requirement for the F/A to be on the flight deck during this type of excerise is a U.S. regulation set by the FAA. As the article explains, rules/laws governing pilot breaks vary from country to country. Looks like the Netherlands does not have the same procedure involving the FA.
 
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:11 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
PF vs. PNF?

It's not called PNF anymore. It's PM for Pilot Monitoring.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 8):
So during a restroom break a flight attendant has to babysit the other pilot?

At many airlines, yes, in case the remaining pilot becomes incapacitated.

Yes. And also so the remaining pilot does have to get out of his/her seat to identify the other pilot requesting entry, if the airplane doesn't have video monitoring.
 
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:02 am

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 13):

Luckily for this FO, it wasn't - the airline has stated it's not taking any action against him.

Any Reasoning for this.

Quoting GApilot106 (Reply 14):
As the article explains, rules/laws governing pilot breaks vary from country to country. Looks like the Netherlands does not have the same procedure involving the FA.

Exactly the query,when things can go wrong.....why dont certain Regulators ensure it does not by putting this safety net in place.
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bueb0g
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:51 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):

Any Reasoning for this.

"The airline confirmed the incident and stated on Feb 1st 2013, that no sanctions were taken against the first officer, sanctions would only backfire."

From Avherald.
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Starlionblue
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:59 am

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 17):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):

Any Reasoning for this.

"The airline confirmed the incident and stated on Feb 1st 2013, that no sanctions were taken against the first officer, sanctions would only backfire."

From Avherald.

If the F/O feels horrible about it sanctions might be counterproductive. The argument could be made that it is criminal negligence but on the other hand do you really want to sanction a good employee who will never do it again? Mistakes are something to be learned from.

I suppose you could argue both ways.
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:29 pm

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 12):
Obviously it could be a carrear ending decision to fall asleep while being the PF.

I suspect that there was no decision made to fall asleep.

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longhauler
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:17 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
Any Reasoning for this.

Fatigue is very quickly becoming the number one cause of air accidents. Airlines that ignore this are doomed to become less safe. Sometimes it takes an actual accident or incident to see this, or sometimes it just takes an occurrence like this.

What the airline does NOT want the F/O to do, is to become public on how he came to be fatigued. An airline that thinks it is solely the crew member's fault that he is fatigued is very naive, and I doubt that Transavia is naive.

Airlines are starting to understand that pilots are not robots that can shut off and then start up and be fully functional. As this is a somewhat extreme case, I would be curious of what the F/O's duty looked like the previous 7 days. All days, then all nights ... early mornings, then late nights .... or how about assign him an early check in, then at 0400 reassign him the following night for an all-nighter to Greece and back. Who knows?

Does the airline have a fatigue management program? Who knows? I am not saying it applies in this case, but some airlines' fatigue management is simply ... "You are not allowed to be tired".
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HAWK21M
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:07 am

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 17):
"The airline confirmed the incident and stated on Feb 1st 2013, that no sanctions were taken against the first officer, sanctions would only backfire."

There is a need for a rectification program.....maybe a guidance class , whats stops this from occuring to others.
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longhauler
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:55 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
There is a need for a rectification program.....maybe a guidance class , whats stops this from occurring to others.

It really depends on how committed the airline (any airline) is to safety. "Safety, as long as it doesn't cost anything" at one end of the scale, to "Safety, at any cost" at the other end.

The airline at which I fly recently had a fatigue caused incident that became very expensive. It did not take all that much arguing to make the "accountants" see that sometimes money has to be spent to be saved. I would like to think most airlines think the same way, but alas ... often we see evidence otherwise.

We have a Fatigue Assessment Committee, which is a volunteer/union committee. Every pairing is assessed using a "fatigue program", and fatigue spots are searched looking to be avoided and eliminated. Then air crew are encouraged to file fatigue reports, so they can be tracked and pairings adjusted if trends start to appear. Finally, air crew are allowed to simply "not fly-fatigued", without any reprimand. However, they are not paid for the flying not completed, and they are required to file a fatigue report. In this way, again, fatigue can be minimized or avoided.

I wasn't just kidding when I mentioned that fatigue is a huge safety issue that must be addressed. And airlines that do not have a Fatigue Management Program, will find that decision to be very expensive, if not fatal.
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HAWK21M
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:17 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 22):

I wasn't just kidding when I mentioned that fatigue is a huge safety issue that must be addressed. And airlines that do not have a Fatigue Management Program, will find that decision to be very expensive, if not fatal.

Im surprised that there could be airlines that do not have a sms program in their organisation.
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longhauler
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:56 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 23):
Im surprised that there could be airlines that do not have a sms program in their organisation.

It is all dictated by the aviation governing body of each country. And .. there is safety management, and there is fatigue management ... I think the two are related, some airlines do not.
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HAWK21M
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:46 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 24):
It is all dictated by the aviation governing body of each country

Are you saying some regulatory authorities do no consider sms important........
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longhauler
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:19 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 25):
Are you saying some regulatory authorities do no consider sms important........

What they "consider" and what they enforce are often two different things. However, as a requirement to fly into some countries, (US and Canada for example), the governing body of the visiting airline must have some sort of sms program, or a "promise" to start one.

The point I am making is that Fatigue Management is not a requirement and not normally included in the sms programs, although some airlines (not countries) see its value, some do not. The regulatory authorities do not go any further with regard to Fatigue Management than to set duty day or crewing restrictions. And often, the airlines' own pilot unions are more restrictive.

For example the United States accepts the duty day and crewing restrictions of other countries, even though they are not the same as what the FAA dictates.
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Geezer
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:42 am

After having read this thread for the second time now, two things come to mind; First......from now on out.....anytime I'm booking a flight on a carrier I'm not familiar with, (VERY slight chance, that), I will definitely inquire as to whether that carrier has a "sop" requiring a minimum of two people on the flight deck at ALL times. Second......I will probably never know how I ever managed to "wake up" all of the dozens of times that I felt the right steering tire depart the pavement, while going from point A to point B in a 40 ton tractor-trailer truck, ( and always, somehow, resumed driving on the pavement, rather than into the ditch ).

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HAWK21M
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:22 am

Quoting Geezer (Reply 27):
First......from now on out.....anytime I'm booking a flight on a carrier I'm not familiar with, (VERY slight chance, that), I will definitely inquire as to whether that carrier has a "sop" requiring a minimum of two people on the flight deck at ALL times

And where will that Info be available?.
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Geezer
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:00 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 28):
And where will that Info be available?.

I'm not sure if I understand your question ? I doubt seriously that I'll ever need to worry much about it, as I doubt if I will be taking any trips out of the country, and the carrier that I have non-rev privileges on pretty much goes any place I'm likely to want to go to.
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HAWK21M
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RE: First Officer Sleeping While PIC.

Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:28 am

Quoting Geezer (Reply 29):
I'm not sure if I understand your question

What I meant was....How will you access that Information/what procedure will you use....
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