Geezer
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Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:30 am

Does anyone know which is the biggest commercial airport in the U.S. that is still using truck refueling, rather than underground refueling ?
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
kordcj
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:54 am

Last time I flew thru MSY they still were using trucks to refuel aircraft. I was quite taken aback by it as I had never seen a commercial craft refueled by truck before.
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Geezer
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:22 am

Quoting kordcj (Reply 1):
Last time I flew thru MSY they still were using trucks to refuel aircraft.

But that's not nearly the biggest one..............
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:46 am

Quoting Geezer (Thread starter):
Does anyone know which is the biggest commercial airport in the U.S. that is still using truck refueling, rather than underground refueling ?

Don't they still do it at LGA?
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mtnwest1979
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:52 am

I remember seeing a Shell truck refueling us in LAS. But that was a Hughes Airwest DC-9 in 1977.  
Quoting Geezer (Reply 2):
Quoting kordcj (Reply 1):
Last time I flew thru MSY they still were using trucks to refuel aircraft.
Quoting Geezer (Reply 2):
But that's not nearly the biggest one..............

But of the ones listed here so far, it's close lol.
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apodino
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:58 am

Definitely PHL....as they have no underground system there at all.
 
HermansCVR580
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:05 pm

While most fueling companies at all airports still have tankers on site for use where there is no hydrant pits a lot of time the freight ramps have no hydrant system or they have tankers on site should the hydrant system go down or a hydrant pit at a gate.

But I would have to say from my experience PHL would be the largest user of tankers on a everyday basis followed by LGA and MSY.
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baileyncreme
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:17 pm

How about Lindbergh @ San Diego (SAN)..??? Lots of DART tankers there. I was a refueler at this airport. Zoom
in on the airport with Google Maps and check them out. They are all over the place.

Portland International Airport (PDX) also does a lot of tanker refueling. I worked there also back in 2000-2001.
The Horizon ramp, Skywest/Air BC ramp and the freighter ramps all are truck refueled.

I loved (!) driving those Dart tankers. 10,000 gallon beasts. The toughest aircraft to fuel were
the UPS DC-8's. We had to use tall step ladders and lift the fueling hose up to connect underneath.

My favorite aircraft to fuel was the 727. Those were just beautiful aircraft. They looked like rocket ships
standing still.
 
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mayor
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:25 pm

Quoting kordcj (Reply 1):
Last time I flew thru MSY they still were using trucks to refuel aircraft. I was quite taken aback by it as I had never seen a commercial craft refueled by truck before.

In MSY's case I believe it's because the water table is so high. Probably virtually impossible to put in an underground fueling system at that airport and impractical, too. Too much chance of water leaking into the system or vice versa.



I worked with a guy in SLC that had been a fueler for DL at MSY. I was told by a very reliable source that this guy wrecked three fuel trucks in ONE day while working there. After seeing him drive, I can believe it. He was later promoted to a lead agent in SLC (pre DL/WA merger).
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freeze3192
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:20 pm

EWR and CLE have a combination of hydrants and trucks.

IAD has trucks for all of the UAX gates, not sure about mainline.
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fuelfool
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:12 am

Quoting baileyncreme (Reply 7):
I loved (!) driving those Dart tankers. 10,000 gallon beasts. The toughest aircraft to fuel were
the UPS DC-8's. We had to use tall step ladders and lift the fueling hose up to connect underneath.

I worked at a place that let us pull between the engines on the DC-8s. We would pull in from the tail. First time I did it, I thought there was no way it would fit.
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Geezer
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:14 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 5):
Definitely PHL....as they have no underground system there at all.

Very good, apodino ! PHL it is ! The reason I happened to know this is..........a few years back when the new Northwest Florida Beaches International Airport first opened for business, I drove down to Florida for the "Open House"; A very close friend of mine was the station manager for one of the carriers, and as he was extremely busy, he "arranged" for me to have a "guide", so I could take pictures from the ramp as the first plane ever to land on the new runway was due to arrive shortly.

My "guide" was a very nice young man who had come down from PHL to help out with the Grand Opening; when I asked him what he did at PHL, he told me he was "over" fueling there, and then mentioned to me about PHL being the biggest commercial airport still lacking an underground fueling system. It was all very interesting to me, as I used to be a tank truck driver for Texaco back in the early 1960's, and I frequently delivered 4 loads of av gas to CVG every day. Back then, ALL airports ( to the best of my knowledge) used truck refueling.

Things were very different around airports back then, especially "security"; back then, security consisted of a 6 ft. chain link fence around the tank farm, and a 3 or 4 ft fence between the parking lot and the ramp where the planes were being refueled. Another thing that was quite different from today was......at the time, all of the airliners serving Greater Cincinnati were still reciprocating engine, prop jobs burning 100-115 octane av gas, and 145 octane av gas ( DC-7s) except for 6 flights each day with TWA's "brand new" B 707s. Shortly later, AA and Delta started getting some DC-8s and CV 880s. Another interesting thing about "security" of the time, as I went there every day, I had to have every load checked and water tested before I could start dumping it, so I became very friendly with all of the "ground service" guys from AA, Delta and especially Piedmont; often, when I arrived with a load of av gas, they would be busy getting a plane ready to go, so being interested in airplanes, I would just stroll out on the ramp, watch everything that was going on, occasionally follow a guy up on a wing to check something ! (Nothing at all like it is today !)

My friend / guide from PHL explained that the airport at Philly is owned by the City, and because of that, it's "run" by a bunch of politicians, ( much like our Federal Government, it would seem ); when I asked why on earth had a big airport that size never installed an underground fuel system, he just smiled and said, "that's a very good question, but one that nobody so far has ever been able to answer". Only in Philadelphia !

Charley
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strfyr51
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:58 am

Philadelphia would never install as system whee NOBODY could get a kickback. They tax EVERY transaction at the airport and accept no deviation of that. Were there and Underground fueling system then any airline might have bulk fuel being delivered that the city Govt might not get a cut of. Besides that the cost to install a hydrant system would be trmendous and close gates and terminals for Months if not Years. And Philadelphia is NOT going to pony up for that when there are fueling companies avaiable. It takes only a little longer to fuel with a truck than a hydrant as the truck has a little greater parking radius from the plane
 
Geezer
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:16 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 12):
It takes only a little longer to fuel with a truck than a hydrant as the truck has a little greater parking radius from the plane
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 12):
Philadelphia would never install as system where NOBODY could get a kickback. They tax EVERY transaction at the airport and accept no deviation of that.

It takes only a little longer to fuel with a truck than a hydrant as the truck has a little greater parking radius from the plane

My guess is, you're probably right about the first part;

Second part........."back in the day", obviously, things were a hell of a lot less crowded on ramps, and as I remember, all of the refuelers were special built so the whole thing would fit under most wings; as I remember, when I first started hauling av gas, most of the filler ports were on top of the wings, and fuel was delivered manually, with an "open fill"; I seem to remember the first time I saw an under-wing "tight-fit" hose connection. ( huge improvement, that!)

You're absolutely right about the way cities try to get their fingers into every pocket! The big problem with refueling trucks is of course, just one more huge potential safety hazard, in an already potentially very hazardous environment, where MANY lives are at peril from ALL un-necessary hazards.

In other words, why doesn't the FAA say to ALL airport authorities......."hey folks, this is how we did it back in the 50's, and THIS is 2013 ! Either get those damned pipes underground, or build a new airport" ! Period.

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
SAAFNAV
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:32 am

Quoting fuelfool (Reply 10):
First time I did it, I thought there was no way it would fit.

Yeah, that's what she said!
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dlramp4life
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:36 pm

I believe ORD uses the fuel trucks for the UAX operation as well.

Quoting mayor (Reply 8):
I worked with a guy in SLC that had been a fueler for DL at MSY. I was told by a very reliable source that this guy wrecked three fuel trucks in ONE day while working there. After seeing him drive, I can believe it. He was later promoted to a lead agent in SLC (pre DL/WA merger).

I always find it amazing that these guys are always the ones that get promoted when the other guy that does his job well and safely gets overlooked....
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mmedford
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:25 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 15):

Never heard of the Peter Principle?
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LAXintl
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:28 pm

LAX has trucks depending on whom you contract your into plane fuel with, and where you park.

The underground hydrant systems are managed by a consortiums, so unless you also buy fuel from them you might have to find other vendors including those using tankers trucks.

Also various spots around the airport such as many of the cargo ramps, and overflow parking spots do not have hydrant hookups.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:41 am

The Parking bay location should be equipped with Hydrant port for fuelling,else the Truck [Bowser] is used.
The Defuelling procedure also requires the Fuel removed from the Aircraft to be put into a Bowser too.
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FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:56 am

JFK uses tankers for all of its cargo operations, they also use tankers for all of the Delta Connection flights at JFK as well as some of the gates where the hydrants are either unavaible or hard to access. Tanker fueling is not uncommon at any airport. I would think every airport would have tankers available for when planes park in areas that don't have hydrants installed.
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Geezer
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:12 am

Quoting mmedford (Reply 16):
Never heard of the Peter Principle?

Ah,.....Dr. Laurence Peter's fine book ! not only heard of it. but read it......twice. "Everyone is promoted "upward" until they reach their level of incompetence" ! Been there, seen that.......may times!


I used to work for Texaco at their old bulk terminal on the Ohio River in Cincinnati in the 60's for 7 years; we had a Superintendent who was a classic example of Dr. Peter's famous principle;
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
KD5MDK
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 15):

Never heard of the Peter Principle?

This would be the Dilbert Principle. "Can't drive? Promote him to a job that doesn't involve driving."
 
Geezer
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:21 pm

Quoting KD5MDK (Reply 21):
This would be the Dilbert Principle. "Can't drive? Promote him to a job that doesn't involve driving."

Lol ! I haven't seen a "Dilbert" strip for a while; who knows, the cartoonist who created Dilbert may have been copying Dr. Peter; I'm pretty sure Dr. Peter wrote his book way before "Dilbert" came along.
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
RIXrat
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:52 am

I know that I'm late to the party, but I was thinking not only in the case of PHL, but about DL and its new refinery. Surely they can supply PHL via truck, but do they dump their fuel into the communal tank at other airports that have underground plugs and still reap the benefits of so-called cheaper fuel that they produce?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:48 am

Quoting Geezer (Reply 22):
Quoting KD5MDK (Reply 21):
This would be the Dilbert Principle. "Can't drive? Promote him to a job that doesn't involve driving."

Lol ! I haven't seen a "Dilbert" strip for a while; who knows, the cartoonist who created Dilbert may have been copying Dr. Peter; I'm pretty sure Dr. Peter wrote his book way before "Dilbert" came along.

The Dilbert Principle is absolutely a parody of The Peter Principle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dilbert_principle
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:25 am

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 23):
I know that I'm late to the party, but I was thinking not only in the case of PHL, but about DL and its new refinery. Surely they can supply PHL via truck, but do they dump their fuel into the communal tank at other airports that have underground plugs and still reap the benefits of so-called cheaper fuel that they produce?

Most major airports get their fuel piped in from a local refinery.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:59 am

Quoting KD5MDK (Reply 21):

This would be the Dilbert Principle. "Can't drive? Promote him to a job that doesn't involve driving."

This is Interesting.......Using the term "Promote" rather thanb "Relocate" is the problem...  
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Geezer
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RE: Truck Refueling At Major U.S. Airport

Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:14 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 24):
The Dilbert Principle is absolutely a parody of The Peter Principl

That's pretty much what I was thinking; I can't remember how long it's been since I read "The Peter Principal", bit I know it's probably at least 30 years ago; I don't think Dilbert has been around near that long.

When the young fellow who is over fueling ops at PHL for WN told me about that airport not having any underground system, it got me to thinking about when I was hauling Av gas to CVG back in the early 50's for Texaco; I don't think any airports were using hydrants yet then. Not only that, but about 90% of the flights into CVG at the time were still reciprocating engine DC-6s and even a few old Martin 404 twins. ( My, how times have changed ! )
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein

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