Flightsimboy
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Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:07 am

I've noticed that www.flightradar24.com's coverage over India and Pakistan seems to have increased. So I was just trying to see the traffic overhead and noticed this very distinct diversion over India and Pakistan over what might have been a straight route (see where the AFR256 turns East, and EVA68 begins the south east direction once again).

And yes some flights do go directly over New Delhi (the large cluster) but they all have that slight bend eastwards and then some gradual turning south east before heading south east completely.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8243/8601481449_c592316bbe_b.jpg
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:26 am

My guess is that's just how the "transit" route goes in that area. Perhaps there are VORs Lahore, Chandrigarh and Uttar Pradesh that define the route.

If we had a high level enroute chart of the area it would help.
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comorin
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:59 am

OT but it's always fun to look down to see the the brightly lit Indo-Pak border fence and hour or so before landing in DEL.

That is one long fence/wall.

I would venture to guess that the flight path diversion is for Air Defence reasons. Both Indian and Pakistani cities are within 15 minutes of each others missiles.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:27 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 2):
I would venture to guess that the flight path diversion is for Air Defence reasons. Both Indian and Pakistani cities are within 15 minutes of each others missiles.

But how?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
comorin
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:57 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
Quoting comorin (Reply 2):
I would venture to guess that the flight path diversion is for Air Defence reasons. Both Indian and Pakistani cities are within 15 minutes of each others missiles.

But how?

Sorry, not sure I understand the question?
 
Mir
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:58 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
If we had a high level enroute chart of the area it would help.

Since Skyvector has worldwide coverage now, I took a look there, and it looks like there's an area of airspace (coded VIR-149) that was probably closed off to traffic at that time.

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baw787
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:57 pm

That is very interesting, http://www.rb24.com has a good coverage sometimes in that area as well. From what I have seen most aircraft cross over from near Lahore, I assumed it specific entry point due to the on going tension between the countries.
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:12 pm

Thanks for the explanations below.   

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
My guess is that's just how the "transit" route goes in that area. Perhaps there are VORs Lahore, Chandrigarh and Uttar Pradesh that define the route.
Quoting comorin (Reply 2):
I would venture to guess that the flight path diversion is for Air Defence reasons. Both Indian and Pakistani cities are within 15 minutes of each others missiles
Quoting Mir (Reply 5):

Since Skyvector has worldwide coverage now, I took a look there, and it looks like there's an area of airspace (coded VIR-149) that was probably closed off to traffic at that time.

I think the route is as described, the transit route. The jets clearly take an Eastern route right over the city of Jhang. Btw the KLM 871 was also on that route before it left it to head to it's final destination New Delhi.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8254/8606323339_850cd609ee_b.jpg
 
Pihero
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:18 pm

That routing has been used for many years. The airway A466 used to go straight from the point - JHANG- to another in India, called GUGAL... They are no longer linked.
I believe that for air defence identification purposes, the routing was changed to JHANG - Faisalabad - Lahore - Chandigarh - Jalalabad and Lucknow, thus avoiding the busy vDelhi terminal area.

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
there's an area of airspace (coded VIR-149) that was probably closed off to traffic at that time.

VIR 149, as it says ( restricted area, Delhi FIR ) is permanently closed to * local traffic* Ground / Unlimited altitudes.
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Flightsimboy
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:16 pm

Great and thanks for the additional comments.

Quoting baw787 (Reply 6):
That is very interesting, http://www.rb24.com has a good coverage sometimes in that area as well. From what I have seen most aircraft cross over from near Lahore, I assumed it specific entry point due to the on going tension between the countries.

The rb24 site has a very www.flightradar24.com feel to it lol

Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):
That routing has been used for many years. The airway A466 used to go straight from the point - JHANG- to another in India, called GUGAL... They are no longer linked.
I believe that for air defence identification purposes, the routing was changed to JHANG - Faisalabad - Lahore - Chandigarh - Jalalabad and Lucknow, thus avoiding the busy vDelhi terminal area.

However, it might be noted (I took this snapshot a little later after I took the first one above), and flights do actually go close to the New Delhi area AUA25 and QFA10, among the SQ and MH A380s (hard to see). Also note that both AFR256 and BAW9 comind down from the north both actually overfly New Delhi. I don't think the issue here is New Delhi but that little diversion near Jhang.

Anyway just thought it looked very obvious, so wanted to get some feedback. Nothing more  http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8244/8608168928_18fb3dcae2_b.jpg
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:52 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
Quoting comorin (Reply 2):
I would venture to guess that the flight path diversion is for Air Defence reasons. Both Indian and Pakistani cities are within 15 minutes of each others missiles.

But how?

Sorry, not sure I understand the question?

Sorry. I meant how specifically does the routing help for air defense?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
comorin
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:34 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
Sorry. I meant how specifically does the routing help for air defense?

No problem! As others have now pointed out, the area around DEL is restricted airspace. I am afraid I do not know enough about routing (or aviation) to answer the 'how' part of your question.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:51 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 11):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
Sorry. I meant how specifically does the routing help for air defense?

No problem! As others have now pointed out, the area around DEL is restricted airspace. I am afraid I do not know enough about routing (or aviation) to answer the 'how' part of your question.

Ah got it.
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Flightsimboy
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:52 am

Found this classic route...or should I say diversion  http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3718/10396972144_bbbbfdaac6_b.jpg
 
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sturmovik
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:48 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
Sorry. I meant how specifically does the routing help for air defense?

To add some general info, flights need an Air Defence Clearance Number from the air force to use Indian airspace. And there is some sort of border treaty between India and Pakistan which says military aircraft of both nations must not approach closer than 10 or 15 (don't remember the exact number) nautical miles from the border. The airways and procedures over the area could well be designed to avoid any issues from mis-identification.
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Chaostheory
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:31 pm

http://oct.imghost.us/YOrM.jpg

As mentioned, much of the traffic transiting EU-Asia will use A466 which requires a turn over Jhang and entry into India via SAMAR.

Gulf airlines tend to use the more Southerly entry point of TIGER.

[Edited 2013-10-21 16:32:56]
 
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zeke
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:39 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
Since Skyvector has worldwide coverage now, I took a look there, and it looks like there's an area of airspace (coded VIR-149) that was probably closed off to traffic at that time.

Every time I ask to go from jhang to LLK (Lucknow), they say unable due to restricted airspace. Sometimes there is Wx buildup on that route, and they have no problems offering clearances to the west of the published route.

The airspace also seems to be used a lot for ATC enroute training.
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rfields5421
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:25 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
Sorry. I meant how specifically does the routing help for air defense?

One way air defense controllers positively identify aircraft coming into their area of responsibility is to order the aircraft to make a turn.

They want to see the inbound aircraft respond to their control commands. Transponders can be spoofed.

The level of trust on both sides of the border when an aircraft is inbound toward the other nation's most restricted airspace is very low.

MAAN in my opinion, but a very common practice in many parts of the world.
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:06 pm

ChaosTheory thanks for that snaphot!! It's my desktop wallpaper right now  .......
 
aklrno
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:41 am

I don't see why anyone should be surprised that some flight paths have diversions around one thing or another. Look at any flight path for WN flying RNO to LAS. There is a diversion (a bit smaller than the one shown by the OP) around the Nevada Test Range and Nellis operating areas. Wouldn't want a 737 in the middle of a Red Flag exercise.
 
deaphen
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:31 pm

Here is a closer look. Due to ATC airways, most aircraft seem to take a large detour over my home town of Chandigarh. Makes a great sight in the winter with the contrails or at night... the SQ aircraft always have the brightest lights!
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e213/deaphen/ScreenShot2012-07-21at71126PM_zpsdb9f941d.png
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Flightsimboy
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RE: Why The Slight Diversion Over India/Pakistan

Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:31 am

Quoting deaphen (Reply 20):
the SQ aircraft always have the brightest lights!

It's usually a parade of SQ and TG jets....sometimes following their sister ships  ... As a kid growing further south in KHI and before one even had access to such maps, just watching the contrails and aircraft during the day, and the blinking lights against a static starry sky at night with binoculars was so much fun, you just knew where they were going to turn high up in the sky lol!!..

Now one can watch the whole action on one's laptop, and see the actual corridor where it all takes place!! With FR24 and liveatc.net, and living close to Pearson it's only minutes before the flight given clearance for take off fills my binocular lenses as they climb out Rwy 24L/R or Rwy 23. We've come a long way from chasing planes when growing up!!  


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