transaeroyyz
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LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:07 am

Was reading a comment on avherald, that said " the captain was a hero for 2 days until they found that the crew did not do the entire landing gear emergency procedure. There was another section to go but the captain trusted the co pilot did all so they saved many life but there was a stupid mistake.."
I don't remember hearing about this, does anyone know any more details, wouldn't they have double checked everything?

source :http://avherald.com/h?article=4589a77d&opt=0
eighth comment from bottom

[Edited 2013-03-30 19:54:04]
 
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LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:46 am

Hmmm, your link takes one to an article titled "Incident: Trip AT42 at Ipatinga on Oct 28th 2012, both engines inoperative, blew tyres on otherwise safe landing"

I don't see a relation between this incident and the LOT incident.
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transaeroyyz
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LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:06 am

Their not related it was the source of my question in the eight comment from the bottom up

"By Ofer on Wednesday, Nov 7th 2012 11:27Z"
 
EMBQA
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LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:53 am

A circuit breaker was found in clear view popped. It was also an item on the check list to be confirmed closed. After the jacked the aircraft the breaker was closed and the gear extended under the alternate procedures

[Edited 2013-03-30 21:04:54]
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blueflyer
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LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:20 am

So what happened to the LOT pilot? An unpleasant conversation and a lot of sim time, or worse?
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BlueSky1976
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LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:32 am

I believe he is still flying with Lot.

Interestingly, Polish aviation authority never published the final report with the cause of failed landing gear extension. Some - myself included - believe that it is done on purpose to protect the reputation of Lot, a government - owned entity, having so-called "best pilots" by the government.
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Crosswind
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LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:21 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
A circuit breaker was found in clear view popped. It was also an item on the check list to be confirmed closed. After the jacked the aircraft the breaker was closed and the gear extended under the alternate procedures

That's not actually true, the circuit breaker which was popped was well out of the normal line of sight at floor level, and was not specifically related to the alternate extension system, although it being pulled would stop it working. Also the checklist made no mention of this circuit breaker.

Given it's position, and lack of any warnings if it was pulled unless you needed to operate an associated system, this CB could have been unintentionally pulled for an unknown amount of time.

The investigation is still ongoing, but has already released 4 recommendations;
- append checklists to address missing items mentioned above
- modify the alternate gear extension checklist to check C829 in case of a failed alternate gear extension
- introduce a checklist for the case of failure of both primary and alternate gear extension
- introduce a physical protection of the circuit breakers located in area where contact with shoes, cleaning equipment, hand luggage, etc. may occur.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4456bd6b/0021&opt=0

Not quite so clear cut.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 5):
Interestingly, Polish aviation authority never published the final report with the cause of failed landing gear extension.

The last interim update was only 5 months ago, so the investigators have another 7 months before they are required to make the next public statement. Hopefully the final report will be ready before then, but I don't think there's any evidence to suggest they will fail to publish given the amount of information they have already made public.

As is usually the case in aviation accidents there is no single failure that lead to this accident, and as far as the crew are concerned, there but for the grace of god...

Regards
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transaeroyyz
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LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:39 am

In the preflight check list is there a not a procedure to check the fuse panel?
 
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longhauler
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:18 pm

Quoting transaeroyyz (Reply 7):
In the preflight check list is there a not a procedure to check the fuse panel?

Yes. And they may well have been checked, and closed.

There are a lot of "theories" right now. One is that the F/O's flight bag pulled the breaker out as he was placing his flight bag, after the circuit breakers were checked. (It's normally done before sitting down).

Another theory is that the earlier hydraulic issue, and fluid loss, may have caused the breaker to pop.

Another theory is that the attempt at the Alternate Gear Extension popped the circuit breaker. In this case, and not knowing when the breaker actually popped, it would be risky to reset it. Hind sight is wonderful. We now know that had the breaker been reset, the Alternate Gear Extension would have worked. But .... what if it caused more problems, especially if there was an earlier possible fluid leak? Maybe the breaker was doing what was supposed to!

That is why the investigation is not so cut and dry.
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windowflyer
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:37 pm

If memory serves me, these pilots had an entire Trans-Atlantic flight to figure out what was happening with their aircraft. Did no one think to check the breakers? I know it's not that simple given the added pressure of failing systems but still, they had upwards of 7 hours to troubleshoot.

[Edited 2013-03-31 09:38:18]
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kaitak
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:51 pm

Quoting windowflyer (Reply 9):
they had upwards of 7 hours to troubleshoot.

Wouldn't they also have been in touch with their own maintenance department as they were troubleshooting and even if the crew had not thought of it, or followed the checklist, the engineering department would have suggested it?

I really don't think it was as simple as some are portraying it.
 
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:02 pm

Quoting windowflyer (Reply 9):
If memory serves me, these pilots had an entire Trans-Atlantic flight to figure out what was happening with their aircraft. Did no one think to check the breakers?

You don't reset a breaker in flight unless you have a pretty good idea that it popped for a non-critical reason. And apparently this breaker having an effect on the alternate gear extension system was not well documented, so the crew would have had no reason to think that resetting it would have helped.
 
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting cornutt (Reply 11):
the crew would have had no reason to think that resetting it would have helped.

How about LOT's mx people?
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N243NW
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:05 pm

Quoting windowflyer (Reply 9):
If memory serves me, these pilots had an entire Trans-Atlantic flight to figure out what was happening with their aircraft. Did no one think to check the breakers?

Did they try both normal and alternate extension systems before making the journey across the ocean? If they had not tried the alternate procedure, they would have had no idea that there was a problem with that system as well.
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windowflyer
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:45 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 10):
Wouldn't they also have been in touch with their own maintenance department as they were troubleshooting and even if the crew had not thought of it, or followed the checklist, the engineering department would have suggested it?

I really don't think it was as simple as some are portraying it.

Agreed. Must have been a whole lot more going on.

Apart from having their own maintenance staff to help them could they not also have asked the experts at Boeing for help? It seems as though they had more than enough time.

Does anyone know what support aircraft manufacturers offer in such cases?
I don't expect them to have an official hotline for airliners in trouble with dedicated staff etc.
But is there some contingency plan for such events?
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:08 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
It was also an item on the check list to be confirmed closed.

No, it wasn't. That was one of the points of the investigation so far; that it wasn't mentioned in the checklists, and a re-write of the relevant checklists has been recommended...

Kind of a redundant thread, OP. This information could easily have been found by looking at the reports or even the posts of the incident on avherald, the site you found the comment on.
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by738
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:02 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 15):
Kind of a redundant thread, OP

yet has generated 15 interesting replies...including your own.
 
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:57 pm

[quote=hivue,reply=12]the crew would have had no reason to think that resetting it would have helped.

How about LOT's mx people?

Resetting a circuit breater in flight is not to be taken lightly, depending on the airlines Flight Manual there are c.b.'s that can be reset and others that require "captain's emergency authority" maintenance cannot really do much in this situation.
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:06 am

Here's footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loTPkN_IqM8

Quoting windowflyer (Reply 9):

If memory serves me, these pilots had an entire Trans-Atlantic flight to figure out what was happening with their aircraft. Did no one think to check the breakers? I know it's not that simple given the added pressure of failing systems but still, they had upwards of 7 hours to troubleshoot.

As I understand it, they didn't know about the problem until they moved the gear handle, so there was no reason to troubleshoot it.

Quoting transaeroyyz (Thread starter):
LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

The press always solves crashes after a few hours, and always lauds pilots as heroes if they bring the plane back safely in a crisis.

No matter the final outcome of the investigation they did bring her down safely. Compare with Air Transat 236, where the crew didn't follow the proper procedure and thus exacerbated the problem, but did manage to glide to safety once they ran out of fuel.
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7BOEING7
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:22 am

Quoting cornutt (Reply 11):
You don't reset a breaker in flight unless you have a pretty good idea that it popped for a non-critical reason.

Boeing doesn't recommend it but says in flight at the Captain's discretion a tripped circuit breaker may be reset once.

Quoting windowflyer (Reply 14):
Does anyone know what support aircraft manufacturers offer in such cases?
I don't expect them to have an official hotline for airliners in trouble with dedicated staff etc.
But is there some contingency plan for such events?

Boeing has people the airline can contact and they have the numbers of two pilots for each model that they can attempt to contact -- not standing by though. I'm not sure pilots have ever been contacted except for a military airplane that had a gear issue way back when -- plenty of fuel and time to troubleshoot.


One of the jeewiz things with the 787 is the CB's are all electronic. You can check which ones are out, reset it or pull it all through maintenance pages that can be displayed.
 
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:55 am

As I understand it, the aircraft was written off as a result of this incident/accident...and it was the newest 767 in LOT's fleet.
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Apprentice
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:20 pm

I don't recall if in preliminary repport, ETOPS issue, starting an ETOPS flight w/o center hyd system, was a concern. Any inputs?
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fr8mech
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:46 pm

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 6):
Given it's position, and lack of any warnings if it was pulled unless you needed to operate an associated system,

I'm always a little cautious when some says an open circuit breaker, especially a distribution buss circuit breaker, will not have a flight deck effect.

So, as an exercise in curiosity and practice, I chased down this particular CB. While it does provide supply to the alternate extend system, it also supplies several other systems. Now, I'll agree that there would be no specific FDE related to the CB, I wonder if at any time the "MAIN BAT CHGR" status message popped up at all. Near as I can tell, in steady state flight, this would be the only indication of a popped "BAT. BUS DISTR CB".

Things would be a little different during the landing phase, because as soon as an autoland were attempted, the "NO LAND 3" annunciation would appear due to the inability of the aircraft to go into buss isolation for autoland.

There would be all kinds of stored faults in the Bus Power Control Unit because this circuit breaker supplies the Back-Up 28VDC to the 3 generator control units.

It'll be interesting to keep an eye on this one.
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Apprentice
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting Apprentice (Reply 21):

Correction: Starting an ETOPS sector.
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:09 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 8):
One is that the F/O's flight bag pulled the breaker out as he was placing his flight bag, after the circuit breakers were checked

Wouldn't that accompany an error message.
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fr8mech
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:34 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
Wouldn't that accompany an error message.

That's what I was trying to get at going through the prints. I won't be near a B767 for about 2 weeks, but I plan to go out to one and pull that breaker and see the effect while on the ground.
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7BOEING7
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:42 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
That's what I was trying to get at going through the prints. I won't be near a B767 for about 2 weeks, but I plan to go out to one and pull that breaker and see the effect while on the ground.

I'm guessing the most you'll get is a status message which doesn't require any crew action. But, more than likely it will only be a maintenance message which depending on the airline is not available to the crew inflight.
 
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:42 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 26):
I'm guessing the most you'll get is a status message which doesn't require any crew action. But, more than likely it will only be a maintenance message which depending on the airline is not available to the crew inflight.

My thoughts are the same after reviewing the print. Kind of surprising though...this is a DC distribution buss that affects quite a few systems.
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longhauler
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:29 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
Wouldn't that accompany an error message.

Apparenretly not, as they were not aware the circuit breaker was open.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
My thoughts are the same after reviewing the print. Kind of surprising though...this is a DC distribution buss that affects quite a few systems.

I sat in the airplane yesterday. Saw the circuit breaker ..... just couldn't bring myself to pull it   One never knows what the heck could happen, then, how do you explain your actions!

Looking at the CB list, it does power a lot of systems. But I have to guess that nothing would show on the EICAS, or the pilots would be aware.

On another tack, does anyone know if it was legal to continue on an ETOPS flight with the initial hydraulic fault under Polish Air Regs? It sure wouldn't be legal where I fly!
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Dufo
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:24 pm

I cannot imagine any of my crew not checking all the relevant switches and breakers for any of the possibly affected systems. Even if not in the procedure/checklist, it can be checked. To be 'reset' when this is not required, that's another story.
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HAWK21M
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:16 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
That's what I was trying to get at going through the prints. I won't be near a B767 for about 2 weeks, but I plan to go out to one and pull that breaker and see the effect while on the ground
Quoting longhauler (Reply 28):
Apparenretly not, as they were not aware the circuit breaker was open.

Im quite surprised that a tripped CB does not give a related message.
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7BOEING7
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 30):
Im quite surprised that a tripped CB does not give a related message.


Tripped CB's do not give a message on any Boeing airplane. On the 787 since the CB's are electronic a page can be brought up on the displays showing CB status.
 
Western727
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:31 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 31):
Tripped CB's do not give a message on any Boeing airplane.

Perplexing. What's the logic behind this design approach?
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longhauler
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RE: LOT Captain Was A Hero For 2 Days Until....

Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:24 pm

Quoting Western727 (Reply 32):
Perplexing. What's the logic behind this design approach?

Basically, its the way Boeing has always done it. The first aircraft I had ever flown with monitored circuit breakers was the A310. The comparable aircraft at the time was the B767, so it would have to be any cockpit designed after that .... say the B777, and Boeing chose not to.

Understand though, that while the actual circuit breaker opeining will not appear on the EICAS, the effect will. Namely, if that popped circuit breaker caused the loss of a system, that system loss will appear. So in an Airbus, you will receive two warnings ... the system loss, then 60 seconds later, the circuit breaker.

Also, not all circuit breakers are monitored in an Airbus, only the green coloured ones ... about half.

In this example of the LOT B767, it is a strange one. Firstly as that particular circuit breaker powered many systems, it was not labled "Alternate Gear Extension". Further, its opening did not generate any EICAS message indicating a system loss.
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