MANfan
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Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:04 pm

It is universal I believe that any airline that operated both the 757 and 767 can utilise a common type rating, and pilots fly both aircraft types.

Does anybody know if something similar occurs between other Boeing aircraft types ?

For example do Lufthansa 747 pilots fly both the 747-400 and the 747-8 once they have completed a "differences" course, or are these to types flown as separate fleets ?

Likewise are United planning to have a common 777 and 787 fleet of pilots once they have taken delivery of sufficient 787 hulls to make it practical.

Also do Delta and United fly the 767-400 as a common fleet with either or both the 767-200/300 fleets and/or their 777 fleets ?
I've heard it said the 767-400 has a 777 style flight deck, but wondered if it meant its pilots were cross qualified.

I appreciate the 737 family are all common type rated

Many thanks for any info anyone can shed on this

MANfan
 
onebadlt123
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:08 pm

I know 737 classic and NG crews are interchangeable and can be typed in both.

I find it funny how a crew can be typed to fly a 752 on one trip, then get in a 764 the next. There is such a difference between the two(size, weight, payload, fuel...etc) but apparently they are supposed to handle the same. I know both have a common flight deck as well but still. You would think a 764 and 777 common type would be a better fit.

Our 777 crews are their own group and my understanding is that are our 787 crews will be their own as well.

[Edited 2013-04-11 10:12:08]
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:11 pm

Quoting Reply 1):
I know 737 classic and NG crews are interchangeable and can be typed in both.

I find it funny how a crew can be typed to fly a 752 on one trip, then get in a 764 the next. There is such a difference between the two(size, weight, payload, fuel...etc) but apparently they are supposed to handle the same. I know both have a common flight deck as well but still. You would think a 764 and 777 common type would be a better fit.

From my understanding, our 787 crews will be their own typed group.

As for the 764ER, they are a separate pilot group from the 752/753/763 group with DL, while at UA they are a single pilot group.
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zeke
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:12 pm

The ones that come to mind

777/787
757/767
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MANfan
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:27 pm

That answers the 764 question, thanks.

I wonder still about the 747-400/747-8

Are Cathay Pacific Cargo planning to dual rate there new 747-8F's with their 744F fleet I wonder ?
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:34 pm

Quoting MANfan (Thread starter):
I've heard it said the 767-400 has a 777 style flight deck, but wondered if it meant its pilots were cross qualified.

They really don't. That's a common misconception. They look sort of similar, but the 777 has much more functionality. A 767-400 shares a common type rating with the 767-200/-300 and 757.
 
WestWing
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:36 am

Quoting MANfan (Reply 4):
I wonder still about the 747-400/747-8

I believe wilco737 said - some months back - at his airline - it is a common type rating after a brief difference training.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:47 am

Quoting Reply 1):
I find it funny how a crew can be typed to fly a 752 on one trip, then get in a 764 the next. There is such a difference between the two(size, weight, payload, fuel...etc) but apparently they are supposed to handle the same. I know both have a common flight deck as well but still. You would think a 764 and 777 common type would be a better fit.

The 757 and 767 also have the same cockpit height over the ground. The planes were developed concurrently. The 777 is much higher off the ground and was developed more than a decade later.

Quoting MANfan (Reply 4):
Are Cathay Pacific Cargo planning to dual rate there new 747-8F's with their 744F fleet I wonder ?

I'd put good money they have (the -8 is already in service). They already had 3 different types of cargo 747 (747-400ERF, 747-400BCF, 747F-400). What's one more?  
Quoting MANfan (Thread starter):
I appreciate the 737 family are all common type rated

Yes but there are gotchas here I think. For example I think WN 737NG planes has their EFIS configured to look like the classic.
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wilco737
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:10 am

Quoting MANfan (Thread starter):
For example do Lufthansa 747 pilots fly both the 747-400 and the 747-8 once they have completed a "differences" course, or are these to types flown as separate fleets ?
Quoting MANfan (Reply 4):
I wonder still about the 747-400/747-8
Quoting WestWing (Reply 6):
I believe wilco737 said - some months back - at his airline - it is a common type rating after a brief difference training

Hi guys,

yes, I am currently flying both: 747-400 and 747-8i. I did the 744 course back then when we didn't have the 748 yet. So I flew the 744 for quite some time, then the mighty 748 joined the fleet and I got a so called 'difference course' for the 748. It is self study at home (computer based training, manuals etc) and then several simulator sessions and then an actual flight with a training captain (TRI/ TRE) and once all that is done I am certified for 744 and 748. So it is one rating.

And I love flying them both   

wilco737
  
 
MANfan
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:42 am

Thanks for the clarification wilco737.

It will be interesting to see if BA eventually dual rate everyone on the 777/787 once the fleet numbers increase for the 787. Initially it will only be the trainers. It's a shame we won't have an opportunity to do the same with the 744/747-8, but except for the freighters (flown separately by GSS) BA seem to have firmly decided against ordering the -8.

There is about the same difference in cockpit height (on the ground) between a 757 & 767, as there is between a 767 & 777. You even had to remember you had to step down into the 757 flightdeck from the front galley, but step up into the 767 flightdeck !!

MANfan
 
CaptCufflinks
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:09 pm

Quoting MANfan (Reply 9):
It will be interesting to see if BA eventually dual rate everyone on the 777/787 once the fleet numbers increase for the 787.

I personally know one of their TRE's on the triple, he is certainly dual certed - a good job really with the delays in delivery.

The conversion course from the triple to the dreamliner is very straightforward; I can't see why crews won't be dual certed - although I suspect with BA in particular it will be rare to have crew that fly both types.
 
BravoOne
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:37 pm

The 777 and 787 are not common type ratings here is the US. Separate ratings on the certificate. If you are already 777 qualified you can do an FAA approved short course to obtain the 787 rating.

EASA does combine the ratings into one much like the 757/767.

I believe Canada issues separate ratings for the 737-200 Classic, 300 400, 500, 600 series and NG being a stand alone rating for the 700, 800 & 900

[Edited 2013-04-12 07:59:17]
 
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747classic
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:20 pm

Sadly the MD11 and the MD10 (now supported by Boeing) have a common type-rating , despite the large aerodynamic handling differences(especially during landing) between these two aircraft types.

[Edited 2013-04-12 09:24:06]
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BravoOne
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:31 pm

I have flown the DC10-10/-30 as well as the MD11, but never the MD10. The FedEx pilots that I have talked to have said that the differences are minimal and well within the bounds of a single type rating.
 
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zeke
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:02 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7):
They already had 3 different types of cargo 747 (747-400ERF, 747-400BCF, 747F-400). What's one more?

Look at the number of engine differances in the fleets, it is more than it appears, many differnt limits and engine start procedures.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 11):
The 777 and 787 are not common type ratings here is the US. Separate ratings on the certificate. If you are already 777 qualified you can do an FAA approved short course to obtain the 787 rating.

Have a look at this

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat...all_infos/media/2011/InFO11016.pdf
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deltal1011man
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:14 pm

Quoting MANfan (Thread starter):

Delta's pilot bases work this way.

73N-737-700/800/900ER
7ER-757-200/300 767-300/300ER
765-767-400ER(no idea why its 765 not 764
M89-M88/M90
DC9-now just the 50s but it was 30/40/50s
717-717-200
330-330-200/300
320 -319/320
777-777-200ER/LR
744-747-400

Also for possible new aircraft.
E90/95 would have it own cat.
787 should be on its own and the 777-300ER will be part of the 777 cat.

the bases are as fallows.

ATL:
777
330
765
7ER
73N
320
717
DC9
M89

DTW:
744
777
330
7ER
73N
320

MSP
7ER
320
M89

NYC:
765
7ER
320
M89
73N
(maybe a 330...can't remember)

SLC
7ER
73N
320

CVG
73N
M89

LAX
7ER
73N

SEA
330
7ER
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BravoOne
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:54 pm

Not sure what your point is regarding the FAA link? They are not common types as the 757/767.

Also a small but anal point is that Boeing does not recognize the term"Button" on either the 777 or 787. They are switches. Go figure!
 
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zeke
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:46 am

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 16):

This is the point, in black and white from the FAA.

"The B-787 Flight Standardization Board (FSB) has evaluated and validated the differences training and checking proposed by The Boeing Company and has determined that the B-777 and B-787 aircraft qualify for a common pilot type rating (IAW AC 120- 53A)."

As for buttons, who cares what they are called, it is the function that I am concerned with.
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KELPkid
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:11 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
"The B-787 Flight Standardization Board (FSB) has evaluated and validated the differences training and checking proposed by The Boeing Company and has determined that the B-777 and B-787 aircraft qualify for a common pilot type rating (IAW AC 120- 53A)."

I'm wondering, though, how many airlines are actually rotating 787 crews back to the triple 7. From what I can tell, it looks like no one is  
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BravoOne
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:57 am

Zeke,

I can't make it any clearer to you apparently. The 787 is a seperate type rating. If you hold a FAA issued B777 type rating then you can take an FAA approved "compressed" type rating course at your airline or Boeing and obtain a 787 type rating. In turn if you don't have the 777 type you can take the 787 long course and get the 787 stand alone rating. Boeing has only recently developed the course for going from the 787 to the 777.

FYI. I have a 787 rating and unlike the 757/767 rating it is a stand alone rating much to Boeing's chagrin.
 
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zeke
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:30 am

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 19):

You are venting towards the wrong party, I quoted the FAA in black and white, they are not my words. Take it up with them.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
BravoOne
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:37 pm

I usually spend at least four hours a day with them, I don't need furrther clarification. No problem and I don't mean to come off as hostile towards you.

Good day Sir.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:03 am

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 16):
Also a small but anal point is that Boeing does not recognize the term"Button" on either the 777 or 787. They are switches. Go figure!

That's true for all Boeing airplanes. It's so we can have standardized and simplified definitions for things, especially for ESL pilots. I'm always getting on my co-workers for this. Buttons are on your shirt. Switches, Selectors and Keys are on flight decks.

You push a switch. Press is what the dry cleaner does to the buttons on your shirt; depress means to take away its Prozac.
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:30 pm

So on FAA certificates, there is a 787 type rating? I remember a big deal being made that the FAA approved a common type rating for the 777 and 787. What is the distinction? Is this not true? When a UAL 787 pilot passes his check ride, does his license now say B787 or B777 or both (like the 757 767)? I don't fly Boeings so I'd appreciate the detailed answer.
 
BravoOne
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RE: Which Boeing Aircraft Can Pilots Be Cross Rated On

Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:14 am

It says 777 (If he previosly obtained the 777 rating) and then it says 787. They are not combined as a 777/787, or 707/720 or DC6/7 rating here in the US.

B-737; B-727; B707/720; B-757; B-767; B-777: B787: DC-10; L1011; G-V; LR-JET

Note that the 757/767 are shown as stand alone ratings rather shown as individual types. IF you have the 777 rating you can do a "compressed transition" to the 787. If you don't have the 777 rating you will need to do the "long course" and it will not give you a 777 rating at the same time like the 757/767 is capable of doing. You would need to do a "Reverse differences" course on the 777 to add that rating. The airplane really have little in common other than being made by Boeing. Well maybe that should be assembeled by Boeing.

When saying a Reverse differences course that means both an FAA oral and a checkride with an FAA 8410 produced from it. Boeing originally did a five day differences course going from the 777 to the 787. This was aproof of concept course to show the FAA that it could be done. I doubt that anyone having done this course felt prepared to actually fly anything beyond the simulator. Most of the airlines are using a ten to sixteen day transition course with FFS and FTD combinations for preveiously qualified 777 crews. I would imagine the day will come that an airline pilot flying for a carrier like UAL that operates both aircraft will attend a combined training program for both the 777 and 787 (assuming that they are a single category at that airline) and thus will come out of it with both types, but it's not there now.

Boeing has struggled with this commonality issue for sometime on all of the fleets. If you have previous Boeing glass time you get some credits for new training. If you have Boeing NG time, then once more you get credits for new Boeing training. It's a complicated picture and what may work here in the US is not always applicable to other regulatory bodies.

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