KELPkid
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What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:05 pm

Just wondering...

The ASARCO smokestacks (a visual checkpoint when approaching ELP) are being demolished tomorrow morning at 6:30 AM, MDT...

http://www.elpasotimes.com/asarco

According to the current sectional, they are still a visual checkpoint when approaching ELP  http://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=31.807&lon=-106.376&zoom=10

"Cessna 2809Q, Report rubble pile, expect Visual Approach RWY 26L"   
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intsim
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:44 am

Khln had its stacks removed a few years ago. Growing up listening to a scanner I don't know how many times pilots were supposed to report something to do with those stacks. Good luck with the change!

http://m.billingsgazette.com/news/st...01cc4c03286.html?mobile_touch=true
 
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tb727
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:37 am

Are those the ones by Sunland Park Racetrack? Maybe they can call over that now, it's pretty close and has a sizable "lake" on the infield making it fairly recognizable.
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KELPkid
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:47 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 2):
Are those the ones by Sunland Park Racetrack? Maybe they can call over that now, it's pretty close and has a sizable "lake" on the infield making it fairly recognizable.

Kinda sorta...I'd put Sunland Park about 3-4 miles NNW of ASARCO. That is indeed a lake. When my dad would take me to the race track, they'd have water ski stunts between the races on that lake   ASARCO was across the border from Mexico, while Sunland Park is north of the Mexican border. The river separates Texas from New Mexico by the racetrack.

There also used to be an airport next to the racetrack, but the high water table near the river caused the runway to sink   Doña Ana County, New Mexico built the Santa Teresa airport to replace the old Sunland Park airport...
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KELPkid
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:49 am

Wondering who did all the awesome flying for this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e7OWMu2Bsg

 
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flyingturtle
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:11 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Thread starter):
"Cessna 2809Q, Report rubble pile, expect Visual Approach RWY 26L"

  

Which brings me to the question which changes have to be announced in a NOTAM, and if pilots have to check all NOTAMs for a given airport or route.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4):
Wondering who did all the awesome flying for this video:

From that youtube link: "Most of it was shot with a Sony PJ790V from a Paramotor, others were ground shots and some were from a Quadcopter! Thanks for watching!"


David
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KELPkid
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:34 pm

Interestingly enough, three days later and no NOTAMs issued regarding the now nonexistent visual checkpoint...although I assume all the ELP Tracon and tower controllers are aware of the situation   I would think that they will need to establish a new checkpoint for traffic entering the ELP class C from downtown, as the mountain blocks radar returns from aircraft flying on the westide of the Franklin Mountains (hence, the cut off shape of the ELP class C airspace). I would think the controllers wouldn't want aircraft showing up on the TRACON radar unexpectedly. The Visual checkpoint used to give the Approach controller warning that you were about to show up on their scope in close proximity to the airport...
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Alias1024
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:41 am

How about using the Sun Bowl? That's not too far from the stacks depicted on the sectional chart.
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KELPkid
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:27 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 7):
How about using the Sun Bowl? That's not too far from the stacks depicted on the sectional chart.

I suppose, but remember, too, it's Texas. There's LOTS of football fields on the Westside of El Paso   I guess the Sun Bowl is a little more prominent than all the junior high and high school stadiums...but on Friday night during football season...  
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sccutler
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:53 am

Reminds me of the old "Stadium Visual" approach to KDAL's 13R- no longer valid when three years back, they demoed it (Texas Stadium).
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asqx
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:37 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
Interestingly enough, three days later and no NOTAMs issued regarding the now nonexistent visual checkpoint

NOTAMs aren't usually issued just because a landmark is demolished, even if it's a VFR reporting point. It will simply be deleted from the chart on the next cycle. It's probable that there may be, or have been for a limited time, a notice at the end of the ATIS stating the stacks have been demolished, but that usually won't get published.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
I would think the controllers wouldn't want aircraft showing up on the TRACON radar unexpectedly. The Visual checkpoint used to give the Approach controller warning that you were about to show up on their scope in close proximity to the airport...

Well, if you intend to enter Class C you should be calling approach within 20 NM to begin with, so you should already have been in contact prior to reaching the stacks. Approach could just as easily give you an instruction to report 6 miles west of the field, which would put you very near the stacks location.
 
atct
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:32 am

In this case it probably fell into a cloud of rubble and dust.


As a controller at a Class C, you don't need to use a reporting point. Use a mileage and compass from the airport. I have this thing called a radar scope and when I give you a code, I see you instantaneously.

atct
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KELPkid
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:27 pm

Quoting atct (Reply 11):
As a controller at a Class C, you don't need to use a reporting point. Use a mileage and compass from the airport. I have this thing called a radar scope and when I give you a code, I see you instantaneously.

atct

Unfortunately, as in the case of the El Paso Class C, mountains tend to absorb radar beams...   Especially when approaching from the west. And if you're not below the height of the peaks of the Franklin Mountains, you're too high for landing...
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atct
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:38 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 12):
Unfortunately, as in the case of the El Paso Class C, mountains tend to absorb radar beams... Especially when approaching from the west. And if you're not below the height of the peaks of the Franklin Mountains, you're too high for landing...


I flew corporate all over west texas, I am very familiar with El Paso. I also work in a place surrounded on all sides by mountains. We still use primary and secondary radar. VFR reporting points are pointless (no pun intended) with secondary radar capabilities. The only time they are used is for non mode C aircraft to give us a general idea of where to look for a primary target. You can identify a target with a geographical fix that is displayed on the radar scope when given the direction of flight from the pilot. Most of us just give a squawk code and wait to see a code change for identification. Some even go as far as to say squawk and then ident (which is pointless, but some people still do it).
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Francoflier
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:38 pm

In a world where virtually every GA aircraft has a GPS installed, I doubt anybody ever bothered to check whether the smoke stacks were even there when they were still indeed there...

And if it is a Class B airspace, the controller knows where you are better than you do.
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longhauler
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:41 pm

On that note ... are the "Maspeth Tanks" still there?
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goboeing
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:49 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 15):
On that note ... are the "Maspeth Tanks" still there?
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/09/ny...arry-love-hate-reputation-end.html

But there are now two smaller white tanks near where they were. Expressway Visual 31 now just uses them instead of the older tanks. "2500 'til the the tanks cleared Expressway visual 31..."

I joked to the f/o a few weeks ago, what if they were just huge cardboard white tank looking things with nothing in them at all, put there just so we can fly the visual to 31?  
 
Alias1024
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:35 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 8):
I suppose, but remember, too, it's Texas. There's LOTS of football fields on the Westside of El Paso

LOL

I suppose a football field doesn't really stand out in Texas.
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:57 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 14):
In a world where virtually every GA aircraft has a GPS installed, I doubt anybody ever bothered to check whether the smoke stacks were even there when they were still indeed there..

Maybe in France, not in the US. A vast majority of GA planes don't have GPS.

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YQBexYHZBGM
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:58 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 15):
On that note ... are the "Maspeth Tanks" still there?

I always heard them referred to as the Elmhurst Tanks (in Queens, New York, adjacent to the Long Island Expressway, on approach to LGA). These were large, expandable gas tanks with a red and white steel skeleton frame surrounding them. But whatever they're called, Maspeth or Elmhurst, they've been gone for quite a few years now.

Al

[Edited 2013-09-24 19:00:31]
 
onetogo
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:21 am

Gawd I hope "The Tanks" for the expressway visual never go away. That would be a mess. Although I suppose "DIALS" supports them alright.
 
timz
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RE: What Happens When A Visual Checkpoint Goes Kaboom?

Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:28 pm

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 19):
I always heard them referred to as the Elmhurst Tanks

You're thinking of the tanks that used to be at 40.730N 73.885W. The tanks beneath the LGA runway 4 approach were fixed, not expandable, with red/white checkerboard tops at 40.7186N 73.9337W.

[Edited 2013-09-25 10:58:14]

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