Gonzalo
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Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:21 am

Hi all. While there is no proof of the cause of this incident yet Cargo Fire On Board SQ A 330, Diverted To BKK (by Gonzalo Apr 23 2013 in Civil Aviation) , there is a good chance of the cause being some sort of hazardous material being on board of the cargo bay of this A330. There is also another incident reported here http://www.avherald.com/h?article=46148e33&opt=0 , with an American Airlines Boeing 767-300, with 190 people and * a small shipment of hazardous goods on board * , they were enroute at FL400 about 100nm east of Raleigh/Durham,NC when the crew reported smoke in the aft cabin and decided to divert to Raleigh/Durham.

Both cases apparently had the mix of a passenger scheduled flight and the shipment of dangerous good in the cargo bay.

So, the question is simple : With all the services of cargo only we have today, WHY the aviation regulators are still allowing this mix of passengers and DG ??

Is this a political issue ? Financial ?

Thanks in advance for your inputs.

Best Regards.

G.
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mmo
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:45 am

The simple fact is the DG rules differentiate between freighter and passenger flights. For instance, there is a limit to dry ice that can be carried on a pax flight. It is classified as DG because as the dry ice melts it gives off CO2. Just because an item is classified as a DG does not mean it is hazardous in and of itself.

The item I always got a laugh out of was the amounts of duty free coming back from the Caribbean. Bacardi 151 can not be transported as it is a DG, more than 70% alcohol. That rule is overlooked all the time.
[photoid]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/B-52D_dropping_mine_during_Team_Spirit_1982.JPEG[/photoid]If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:51 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets? 

Short answer: Because it is safe. Airliners don't routinely have problems due to dangerous goods. Yes, it does happen on occasion but incidents and accidents are nowhere near the frequency that would require a ban on dangerous goods on passenger aircraft.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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longhauler
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:32 pm

And remember, thousands of passenger aircraft carry dangerous goods every day. Everyone from the shipper to the loader to the pilots must be DG trained, and follow very very strict guidelines.

If it wasn't safe, it wouldn't happen.

99.99% of the DG incidents I have investigated have been the result of either:

1) Ignorance of the laws, usually happening by passengers carrying something in their checked baggage that they did not know was restricted or dangerous. Some get fined, some just get warned.

2) Non-compliance by shippers that knowingly ship something dangerous but don't tell the airline. As they often pack and seal the containers, it would go undetected. There are heavy fines, and jail terms applied in these cases. As well, the shipping company (if they stay in business) loses their right to send sealed containers to the airline.

In other words, Dangerous Goods procedures were not being followed, and would have occured if Dangerous Goods was allowed or not!
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dlramp4life
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:38 pm

DG is cargo and cargo equals money for airlines.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:58 am

there's a lot of DG that's carried on cargo jets that isn't allowed on pax carriers. I can't imagine the pax carriers carrying very dangerous goods.
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:01 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 5):
there's a lot of DG that's carried on cargo jets that isn't allowed on pax carriers. I can't imagine the pax carriers carrying very dangerous goods.

Most DG can be carried on both passenger and cargo aircraft. The general difference is the quantity of DG allowed. As stated earlier, when DG packaging and shipping procedures are followed sending DG is no more dangerous than any other cargo on the aircraft. In most cases there are 3 standards for shipping DG on an aircraft. There are the law, then even more strict is the IATA and ICAO standards, then the most stringent is the airline regulations. When these standards are followed there is little that can go wrong.

As for the OPs question, there are many things that are DG that you may not even realize is DG and passenger planes go more places than cargo planes do, so when something needs to get there by a certain time it will be shipped on the fastest service available. Things like cosmetics, frozen fish, glow in the dark watches, are all hazmat. The issue is not with the items its with following the established procedures.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:55 pm

I was referring to things such as explosives, flammable liquids, radioactive materials, flammable solids, etc. I didn't think the pax carried these and certainly not in large quantities.
 
JAGflyer
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:59 pm

DG rules state laptop batteries (NiCad or LiON) must be separated from the computer for shipping (which is usually done at the factory anyway). However, most passengers carrying on laptops or cell phones do not separate the batteries and most use the devices on the flight.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:24 am

Quoting jagflyer (Reply 8):

DG rules state laptop batteries (NiCad or LiON) must be separated from the computer for shipping (which is usually done at the factory anyway). However, most passengers carrying on laptops or cell phones do not separate the batteries and most use the devices on the flight.

In the cabin, they can be together. People would notice the fire.

If you put devices with such batteries in the hold, the rules clearly state they must be separated. Not that I think this rule is followed much.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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akiss20
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:36 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
Quoting jagflyer (Reply 8):

DG rules state laptop batteries (NiCad or LiON) must be separated from the computer for shipping (which is usually done at the factory anyway). However, most passengers carrying on laptops or cell phones do not separate the batteries and most use the devices on the flight.

In the cabin, they can be together. People would notice the fire.

If you put devices with such batteries in the hold, the rules clearly state they must be separated. Not that I think this rule is followed much.

Does that imply that Apple cannot ship things such as iPods/iPhones and the newer Macbook Pros and Macbook Airs via air? Those products do not have removable LiON batteries, so they cannot be separated.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:49 pm

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 10):
Does that imply that Apple cannot ship things such as iPods/iPhones and the newer Macbook Pros and Macbook Airs via air? Those products do not have removable LiON batteries, so they cannot be separated.

Interesting observation. I am certain that Apple follows the rules and that they certify it or ship the stuff in special containers. Or something.

However the rules would mean that as an individual you can't put your MacBook Air in your hold luggage. At least that is my interpretation.
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akiss20
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
Quoting akiss20 (Reply 10):
Does that imply that Apple cannot ship things such as iPods/iPhones and the newer Macbook Pros and Macbook Airs via air? Those products do not have removable LiON batteries, so they cannot be separated.

Interesting observation. I am certain that Apple follows the rules and that they certify it or ship the stuff in special containers. Or something.

However the rules would mean that as an individual you can't put your MacBook Air in your hold luggage. At least that is my interpretation.

I don't know enough about LiON chemistry to know, but are they dangerous at all if they are completely uncharged? If not, perhaps Apple ships them around uncharged and they get charged and packaged once they reach their destination (if I remember correctly, both my MBP and iPhone came out of box with ~50% charge).

If they are, then I have little idea. Perhaps iPods/iPhone's batteries are too small capacity to be considered a threat? Doesn't explain the MBP/MBA problem though.

As a passenger, I would never put my laptop in checked luggage anyway. I've seen how those rampers handle bags sometimes!  Wow!  
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:58 pm

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 12):
I don't know enough about LiON chemistry to know, but are they dangerous at all if they are completely uncharged? If not, perhaps Apple ships them around uncharged and they get charged and packaged once they reach their destination (if I remember correctly, both my MBP and iPhone came out of box with ~50% charge).

Nah. This stuff is charged and shipped by air. For example a Kindle is air shipped from the US and arrive to me with about half a charge.

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 12):
As a passenger, I would never put my laptop in checked luggage anyway. I've seen how those rampers handle bags sometimes!

Packing is easy. The problem is that you may not be reimbursed if it is lost.
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B777LRF
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:05 am

The description "dangerous goods" is slowly being phased out, replacing it instead with "Restricted Commodities" which has less adverse connotations.

The bottom line is still the same, however, that substances which may present a danger to life, health, property or the environment can be transported quite safely by air, provided the correct procedures and precautions have been adhered to. Thus, it is very uncommon to see something going wrong with correctly packaged and handled DG shipments. The real problem is with "hidden DG", shipped as such either out of ignorance (usually by private individuals) or by fraudulently labeling something as non-DG when it actual fact it is (usually by companies).

Banning DG from pax aircraft is therefore unlikely to yield any noticeable safety improvements.
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ha763
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:01 am

Quoting jagflyer (Reply 8):
DG rules state laptop batteries (NiCad or LiON) must be separated from the computer for shipping (which is usually done at the factory anyway).
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
If you put devices with such batteries in the hold, the rules clearly state they must be separated.

There are specific UN numbers and packing instructions for batteries that are contained in equipment. For example, one of the proper shipping names for UN3481 is "Lithium ion batteries contained in equipment." The other proper shipping name for UN3481 is "Lithium ion batteries contained with equipment."

http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/cargo/d...ium-Battery-Guidance-2013-V1.1.pdf

There is also no rule that all batteries in pax baggage must be separated from the equipment, but spare batteries must be carried in carry on baggage only:

http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/cargo/d...ovisions-23A-2013-EN-Addendum1.pdf

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 12):
If they are, then I have little idea. Perhaps iPods/iPhone's batteries are too small capacity to be considered a threat? Doesn't explain the MBP/MBA problem though.

Check out packing instructions 966, 967, 969, 970:

http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/cargo/d...acking-Instructions-965-970-EN.pdf

A 15.4" MBP with retina display has a 95 watt/hour battery and would be classified as UN3481 and fall under Section II of PI967. Max watt/hour per battery for PI967 is 100 watt/hour. Just for information, a 13" MBA has a 50 watt/hour battery. The max net quantity of lithium ion cell or battery per package for a pax aircraft is 5kg. The entire MBP only weighs 4.46lbs (2.02kg). No shipper's declaration is required. You can tender 100's of MBP/MBA's for shipment as cargo on pax aircraft (subject to carrier specific limits) as long as you follow the DGR.
 
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BreninTW
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:29 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
Quoting akiss20 (Reply 10):
Does that imply that Apple cannot ship things such as iPods/iPhones and the newer Macbook Pros and Macbook Airs via air? Those products do not have removable LiON batteries, so they cannot be separated.

Interesting observation. I am certain that Apple follows the rules and that they certify it or ship the stuff in special containers. Or something.

At the company I work for, we ship notebook computers with integrated batteries. There is a physical disconnect between the battery and the rest of the notebook that needs to be deactivated by a special power-on procedure the first time the computer is turned on -- it's a really (and I mean *really* simple) procedure, but if it's not done, the notebook won't power on because the battery is disconnected from the rest of the notebook.

Exactly how it works I have no idea -- I only know what the deactivation procedure is.
 
dc10bhx
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RE: Why Are DG Shipments Allowed In Pax Service Jets?

Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:53 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 7):
I was referring to things such as explosives, flammable liquids, radioactive materials, flammable solids, etc. I didn't think the pax carried these and certainly not in large quantities.

All of these things (and more) are carried on PAX flights every day. I have lost count of the amount of explosives (Class 1.4S) I have shipped on the last 28 years. Flammable liquids / solids and Radioactive are all ok on PAX flights (and this is where i get on my high horse) AS LONG AS THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED. We as Agents have a responsibility to check shipments prior to them being delivered to the Airline. We use the same check list that the Airlines do and we can reject a shipment in just the same manner. Where the problems start happening is when Shippers (and Passengers) either willfully ignore the rules or are ignorant of the rule existing (as far as I am concerned ignorance is not a defence on this issue).

The rules book(s) (As there are 2 being IATA {which I use every day at work} and the ICAO rules) are there for a reason, and that reason is safety. Accidents can (And do) happen, and when they do happen you can guarantee that there will be a knock on the door of everyone who had freight on board to allow checks to be made on procedures to find out if any misdeclared hazardous item was involved (been there, done that). If there is a lapse in procedure (remember a chain is only as strong as its weakest link) then a rules change will be made and issued ASAP. As an IATA Agent I have to lodge my Certificate showing I have passed my revalidation exam with IATA (they probably have a small book of my certs now as I will be doing my 15th revalidation later on this year).
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